Adam and Eve

Brighten04

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cassia said in #37
Placing Adam before the tree of life and the tree of good and evil to choose between them seems to say that God's creation of mankind was incompleted.

No it was not a choice between the two trees sister. Adam was given permission to eat from every tree in the garden, including the tree of life. The choice was ,obey or die. Adam abandoned life, that he already had, and chose death. Adam was complete in God. Shucks, he was the very image of God. He was in no way incompleted.
 

Cassia

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cassia said in #37


No it was not a choice between the two trees sister. Adam was given permission to eat from every tree in the garden, including the tree of life. The choice was ,obey or die. Adam abandoned life, that he already had, and chose death. Adam was complete in God. Shucks, he was the very image of God. He was in no way incompleted.

They were sinless, like little children are born w/o understanding. Before the fall they weren't like God, knowing good from evil. Satan told them that gaining that would make them like God. What satan didn't mention was that they would lose the status of sinlessness. Then the fall moved them into "sin as the transgression of the law"

Jesus says of the innocent childlike state that "of such is the kingdom of heaven". But because of the fall that brought on the fallen nature for all of us, getting back to that state of innocence that Adam and Eve had cannot happen, period. Now we have to go thru the transition of being under law to breaking free thru grace into a new creation.

It is the new creation that is the completion and none but those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life can succeed.

The animals were created complete but the bible's unfolding shows humans progressively moving toward Godlikeness. It was not a condition at creation.

I have no idea what would have happened if they would have taken on His life at that point of sinlessness. But if they had it would have no doubt have been a further progression, again signifying a lack of completion.
Jesus could possibly have been born into that state that they would have been if they had eaten of the life. A sinlessness with God's life. From there He grew but His completion came at His death and resurrection. He is the first and now gives us that life of the new creation.

"He was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected," wrote Irenaeus. "It was necessary that he should grow and so come to his perfection."

Hope that makes sense to you too, it does to me.

Placing Adam before the tree of life and the tree of good and evil to choose between them seems to say that God's creation of mankind was incompleted. Adam (male and female) were still unfinished.
God's life is represented in the tree of life and as yet mankind had not reached the stage of a completed creation. Making the wrong choice in eating of the tree of knowledge delayed mankind's completion.
Because of that mankind didn't reach the highest level of attainment and was still in need of further developement.
Adam was a living soul but didn't have God's Spirit as life within him and for that reason he/they would die.
Adam had been made to contain God but w/o God's character within. In essence Adam "fell short of the glory of God"

What Jesus represented wasn't a super human. He was a normal person as was meant to be. He doesn't represent mankind but instead is THE representative of all mankind.
And in resurrection His power was completed to become transcendent even over death. Hebrews 1:5, 1 Peter 1:3, Acts 13:33-34. Death can no longer place any more limitations if we choose correctly.

We still have that choice in front of us to choose whether to trust in God that our best interest is where His heart is at or listen to satan say become your own God, you won't die.

Choosing the tree of life is to choose Christ.
 
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Brighten04

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Cassia said
They were sinless, like little children are born w/o understanding. Before the fall they weren't like God, knowing good from evil.

OK,I can agree that they did not know evil. All they knew was good. Evil was presented to them as a" good" thing. That was the great deception imho.But the scripture says that man was created in the likeness of God. Can you elaborate on your thinking about these verses
Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen.5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

There is no exception written(except knowledge of good and evil). No indication that man was incomplete in any way. Now imho, man had the capacity to understand evil from his creation, he was complete, though the capacity to discern may have been undeveloped in his innocence and sinlessness. Yes, like children, born with the capacity to understand right from wrong but without the sin nature (that children are born with post fall).
 

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But the scripture says that man was created in the likeness of God. Can you elaborate on your thinking about these verses Genesis 1:26, Genesis 5:1 .
Created in His image as to the makeup unique to humans. Having the compacity to contain God but inwardly so far as not containing God. Jesus the new Adam contains the lifegiving spirit.

All I'm saying is that the old creation needs to become the new creation to actualize the intent of God.
 

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*copied from post#42--->
--->
It is the new creation that is the completion and none but those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life can succeed.
This sounds like 'salvation as process'. (pls correct me if Im wrong)
If (since) Jesus saved us, We ARE a new creation. What do you mean 'Those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life? Can succeed?'
Succeed at what? Obtaining His life...What does that mean?
The bible says, 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', right?
So we are saved, sealed by His Holy Spirit of promise, and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. That's His work of redemption, we are the recipients of His grace, His gift to us freely, not something we are working to obtain.
The animals were created complete but the bible's unfolding shows humans progressively moving toward Godlikeness.
It can be argued that the bibles unfolding (as well as the daily news of the world) shows humanity progressively moving AWAY from Godlikeness.
Also, didnt the enemy lie when he said you shall be as God knowing good and evil?
God will always be God, we His creatures.
Yes, man was created in His image and likeness, and since the fall, that image is shattered, but we are not working towards Godlikeness.
By His grace He saved us, and yes, there's a day when we'll be like Jesus,
but the diff between us and Godlikeness, is kind of like a lamp and the sun.
Yes, a lamp can give off light and heat and even energy, so in that regard, it can be said it's 'sunlike', but a mere tablelamp isnt really like the sun. Yes? No?
 

Brighten04

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Created in His image as to the makeup unique to humans. Having the compacity to contain God but inwardly so far as not containing God. Jesus the new Adam contains the lifegiving spirit.

All I'm saying is that the old creation needs to become the new creation to actualize the intent of God.

Well the old creation would not need to become new if he had not chosen to disobey and chose death. Yes for us, post fall,created in the image of sinful Adam, we need to be born again, in the image of Christ, the last Adam. OK, let me explain, The first Adam went from life(life of God ) to death(through sin), thus bringing death to every man/woman.He forfeited the life(of God), and the dominion over creation as God had blessed him/us to have. I hope I am making sense. Now Jesus, the last Adam went from death(crucifixion) to life(resurrection), regaining all of the dominion and power over creation that the first Adam lost.Making it so for all who believe in Him to regain as well what the first Adam lost . He gave us the authority and power of His name to do all of the things He did and more. That is why He said.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And this is how
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

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Well the old creation would not need to become new if he had not chosen to disobey and chose death.
Your assuming that what is referred to as creation is after the fall but I don't believe that's true. Creation means creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!​

Yes for us, post fall,created in the image of sinful Adam, we need to be born again, in the image of Christ, the last Adam.
As much as they needed the tree of life

OK, let me explain, The first Adam went from life(life of God ) to death(through sin), thus bringing death to every man/woman.He forfeited the life(of God), and the dominion over creation as God had blessed him/us to have. I hope I am making sense. Now Jesus, the last Adam went from death(crucifixion) to life(resurrection), regaining all of the dominion and power over creation that the first Adam lost.Making it so for all who believe in Him to regain as well what the first Adam lost . He gave us the authority and power of His name to do all of the things He did and more. ...
This is where the dispute is ... you believe that Adam had God's life w/o partaking of the tree of life. I don't.
 

Brighten04

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Cassia said
This is where the dispute is ... you believe that Adam had God's life w/o partaking of the tree of life. I don't.

OK then. So whose life do you believe Adam had in the beginning?
 

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Cassia said


OK then. So whose life do you believe Adam had in the beginning?
The last thing I want to do is argue with you but as a friendly debate I Love It! lol

Ok then, Adam had life breathed upon him to become a living soul. It was his own life.
 

Brighten04

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The last thing I want to do is argue with you but as a friendly debate I Love It! lol

Ok then, Adam had life breathed upon him to become a living soul. It was his own life.

I really don't care for debate either sis. LOL! But I do like sharing and exploring different points of view. But look, God breathed into Adam the breath of life. So, imho, the breath of life came from God. We do not see God breathing into the animals as He did man. That is what makes man a living soul. Mans life is God breathed.
 

Cassia

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I really don't care for debate either sis. LOL! But I do like sharing and exploring different points of view. But look, God breathed into Adam the breath of life. So, imho, the breath of life came from God. We do not see God breathing into the animals as He did man. That is what makes man a living soul. Mans life is God breathed.

Genesis 2:7
“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being”​

Being formed from the dust and having God breath life into him certainly would and did set Adam apart from the other creations. Formed gives the impression of the potter using the materials previously made to create something unique.

But the breath can be compared to when Jesus breathed on the disciples and He said it was the Holy Spirit being breathed upon them.
John 20:22​
Yet ... they still needed to remain in Jerusalem to receive the power from on high. Again, that breath was not complete.

Our soul is ourself and as Christians we're to deny self, which is what Adam did not. Presumably that which is spirit died and needs new life breathed into it. From there we are told to press on to the higher calling.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​
 

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I'm baaack! ��

Sorry for taking so long, I had to take a break after my exam ��.




I can see how we cannot conclude from the text either possibility with certainty, but even if it was the first possibility (one time and done), if death was explained as spiritual rather than physical then we wouldn't have a problem, right? Because then, isolating Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life would not be understood as the direct consequence of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, but rather an extra precautionary measure. Although I sensed from one of your answers that you do not agree with that explanation of death.

Also, since the text is not very clear, and since it is a translation, can't we go back to the original text (Hebrew?) to see if we can find an answer? I can't understand Hebrew myself, but if anyone here does, maybe he/she could help out? ��
I'll also look up the text in Arabic (my mother tongue) to see if I can get any clues.

Oh and Cassia, nice profile pic ����. That's the national dress of Arab Gulf States. Looks cute on a cat though ��.

I agree about Cassia's kitten picture. It's very cute.

About the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the passage in genesis chapters two and three reads like a sage's vision that explains why the world is as mixed with good and evil as it is. In visions objects and words take on unusual meanings so a tree whose fruit can give life that lasts forever and another tree whose fruit gives knowledge of good and evil and also happens to kill if eaten make better sense if understood as the sage's wise explanation in visionary language than if understood as something like a news report on television.
 

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*copied from post#42--->
--->
This sounds like 'salvation as process'. (pls correct me if Im wrong)
If you meant sanctification as a process you would be right.
If (since) Jesus saved us, We ARE a new creation. What do you mean 'Those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life? Can succeed?'
Succeed at what? Obtaining His life...What does that mean?
It means that if you don't accept Christ as savior you ainna gonna
The bible says, 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', right?
So we are saved, sealed by His Holy Spirit of promise, and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. That's His work of redemption, we are the recipients of His grace, His gift to us freely, not something we are working to obtain.
Correct, where am a advocating a works based salvation?
It can be argued that the bibles unfolding (as well as the daily news of the world) shows humanity progressively moving AWAY from Godlikeness.
That's a world view but viewed from God's perspective it can be said that from the beginning to the end of the bible God has moved progressively closer
Also, didnt the enemy lie when he said you shall be as God knowing good and evil?
God will always be God, we His creatures.
What's your point?
Yes, man was created in His image and likeness, and since the fall, that image is shattered, but we are not working towards Godlikeness.
By His grace He saved us, and yes, there's a day when we'll be like Jesus,
but the diff between us and Godlikeness, is kind of like a lamp and the sun.
Yes, a lamp can give off light and heat and even energy, so in that regard, it can be said it's 'sunlike', but a mere tablelamp isnt really like the sun. Yes? No?
Again please clarify meaning
 

Brighten04

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Cassia said
Genesis 2:7
“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being”

Being formed from the dust and having God breath life into him certainly would and did set Adam apart from the other creations. Formed gives the impression of the potter using the materials previously made to create something unique.

He was a LIVING soul. After he sinned he became a dead soul. I mean, essentially a zombie. LOL. Walking around as the living dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V90AmXnguw

Our soul is ourself and as Christians we're to deny self, which is what Adam did not. Presumably that which is spirit died and needs new life breathed into it
EXACTLY! That which is spirit died! Unregenerate man is dead in trespasses and sin.We are ourself, born after sinful Adam, but when we became born again of the Holy Spirit we once again had the life of God restored to us. This is why Jesus came.
John 10:10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

John 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:48I am that bread of life.
 

Cassia

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Cassia said


He was a LIVING soul. After he sinned he became a dead soul. I mean, essentially a zombie. LOL. Walking around as the living dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V90AmXnguw


EXACTLY! That which is spirit died! Unregenerate man is dead in trespasses and sin.We are ourself, born after sinful Adam, but when we became born again of the Holy Spirit we once again had the life of God restored to us. This is why Jesus came.
John 10:10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

John 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:48I am that bread of life.
That's brilliant brighton lol I like that!
 

user1234

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If you meant sanctification as a process you would be right.
It means that if you don't accept Christ as savior you ainna gonna
Correct, where am a advocating a works based salvation?
That's a world view but viewed from God's perspective it can be said that from the beginning to the end of the bible God has moved progressively closer
What's your point?
Again please clarify meaning
Well, cass, you are the one that made salvation sound like a process, and so you would be wrong. I was asking what You're point was, but you never gave it. You simply asked what mine was. Nice evasion. You advocated a worksbased salvation when you positted it as a process that man has to strive to obtain, rather than a gift given by God.
 

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Well, cass, you are the one that made salvation sound like a process, and so you would be wrong. I was asking what You're point was, but you never gave it. You simply asked what mine was. Nice evasion. You advocated a worksbased salvation when you positted it as a process that man has to strive to obtain, rather than a gift given by God.
You brought up salvation and then accuse me of saying I was advocating something that I wasn't?
 

user1234

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You brought up salvation and then accuse me of saying I was advocating something that I wasn't?
Nice try, but nope. Didnt quite accuse you.....initially I questioned the meaning of your statement....

YOU made this statement --->It is the new creation that is the completion and none but those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life can succeed.<---

I said that sounds like salvation as a process. It still does.
You responded by saying if I mean sanctification, then yes.

I didn't mention sanctification. If I meant that, I would have said that. God's Word makes it clear that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ may KNOW they HAVE eternal life, not that they're working on completing to obtain His life.
 

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Nice try, but nope. Didnt quite accuse you.....initially I questioned the meaning of your statement....

YOU made this statement --->It is the new creation that is the completion and none but those who have begun that completion of obtaining His life can succeed.<---

I said that sounds like salvation as a process. It still does.
You responded by saying if I mean sanctification, then yes.

I didn't mention sanctification. If I meant that, I would have said that. God's Word makes it clear that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ may KNOW they HAVE eternal life, not that they're working on completing to obtain His life.

Ok I get what your asking me now! You want to know my definition of success! Yes, that would be arrival in the New Jerusalem.
 

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Ok I get what your asking me now! You want to know my definition of success! Yes, that would be arrival in the New Jerusalem.
No again. I wasn't asking for your definition of success.
 
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