Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MennoSota]

Those who believe are the sole recipients of the Atonement 100%

Not all believe. Therefore, Jesus atonement is limited to those who believe. Limited Atonement.

 

[Andrew]

Not all believe. Therefore, Jesus atonement is limited to those who believe. Limited Atonement.

That's what I said

 

[MennoSota]

That's what I said

So you recognize and agree with Limited Atonement?
T - Total depravity: We hopelessly fall short and cannot merit our own salvation.
U - Unmerited election: God, in His mystery, chooses to reconcile people to Himself based solely uon His will and not based on the works of man.
L - Limited Atonement: Jesus sacrificial death atoned for those whom the Father has given to Him.
I - Irresistible grace: God's choice to extend grace that leads to faith cannot be resisted unto damnation. When God wills a person to be made alive in Christ, that person cannot stop it.
P - Perseverance (not preservation) of the saints: God's gift of faith gives believers the capacity to believe through all circumstances. Though doubts and trials will come, Jesus will ensure that not one that the Father has given Him will perish.

Much scripture (passages of scripture, not just a verse) have been shared. Let God's word be true.

 

[Andrew]

So you recognize and agree with Limited Atonement?
T - Total depravity: We hopelessly fall short and cannot merit our own salvation.
U - Unmerited election: God, in His mystery, chooses to reconcile people to Himself based solely uon His will and not based on the works of man.
L - Limited Atonement: Jesus sacrificial death atoned for those whom the Father has given to Him.
I - Irresistible grace: God's choice to extend grace that leads to faith cannot be resisted unto damnation. When God wills a person to be made alive in Christ, that person cannot stop it.
P - Perseverance (not preservation) of the saints: God's gift of faith gives believers the capacity to believe through all circumstances. Though doubts and trials will come, Jesus will ensure that not one that the Father has given Him will perish.

Much scripture (passages of scripture, not just a verse) have been shared. Let God's word be true.

Does it mean I am a Calvinists if I agree?
because I agree.. uh oh

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does it mean I am a Calvinists if I agree?
because I agree.. uh oh

Careful, the L in Tulip means that God intended to save only the elect and that God loves only the elect and all this was planned from before creation. It means that every other human being was brought into the world to go to hell. Predestined to it. chosen as a vessel for dishonourable purposes by God from before creation and with no way to be saved.

 

[MennoSota]

Does it mean I am a Calvinists if I agree?
because I agree.. uh oh

It means you are reading scripture. That is all that John Calvin did. He read scripture and wrote about what he read.

 

[MennoSota]

Careful, the L in Tulip means that God intended to save only the elect and that God loves only the elect and all this was planned from before creation. It means that every other human being was brought into the world to go to hell. Predestined to it. chosen as a vessel for dishonourable purposes by God from before creation and with no way to be saved.

It means...what does scripture present? Does scripture present that Jesus sacrificial atonement has made all humanity holy and righteous or does scripture present that Jesus sacrificial atonement has made only those who believe holy and righteous?
What does scripture express?
Let God's word be true.

 

[Andrew]

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It means...what does scripture present? Does scripture present that Jesus sacrificial atonement has made all humanity

Yes, for all (1Tomothy 2:4). For the whole world (1John 2:2). For the world (John 3:16). The verses have been posted in this thread many times.

holy and righteous or does scripture present that Jesus sacrificial atonement has made only those who believe holy and righteous?
What does scripture express?
Let God's word be true.

(1 John 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who wants all men to be saved and to arrive at an acknowledgment of the truth.
John 3:16* “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, for all (1Tomothy 2:4). For the whole world (1John 2:2). For the world (John 3:16). The verses have been posted in this thread many times.


(1 John 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who wants all men to be saved and to arrive at an acknowledgment of the truth.
John 3:16* “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

MC, Muslims quote sentences out of context to prove Jesus didn't die. You use their techniques to make your claims. The media does the same thing.
Come on, have some integrity and look at the passages surrounding your one verse.
Here's a meme to make my point.

 

[Josiah]

Not all believe. Therefore, Jesus atonement is limited to those who believe. Limited Atonement.

Wrong.

You like to wiggle out of TULIP, don't you?

As you yourself specifically stated, the "L" is that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few.
THAT'S the dogma of the "L". That's the invention of those few latter-day extreme Calvinists.

Everyone agrees that atonement is limited in its application.... but that doesn't mean Scripture and 2000 years of Chrsitianity are wrong and Jesus died for only a few. It means what Scripture says, only some have faith.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Wrong.

You like to wiggle out of TULIP, don't you?

As you yourself specifically stated, the "L" is that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few.
THAT'S the dogma of the "L". That's the invention of those few latter-day extreme Calvinists.

Everyone agrees that atonement is limited in its application.... but that doesn't mean Scripture and 2000 years of Chrsitianity are wrong and Jesus died for only a few. It means what Scripture says, only some have faith.




.

Blindness is your curse, Josiah. Your own words preach limited atonement. You just reveal your crutch.

Everyone agrees that atonement is limited in its application.... but

You got a BIG but there, Josiah. I cannot lie.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, Muslims quote sentences out of context to prove Jesus didn't die. You use their techniques to make your claims. The media does the same thing.
Come on, have some integrity and look at the passages surrounding your one verse.
Here's a meme to make my point.

You rely on sophistry. There's no substance in your argument. The passages are not a restricted view because, for brevity's sake, they are pointed to with a single verse. We all have bibles available. The context is available to any who read. Yet the context doesn't abrogate the verses quoted. You assert that context will make a Calvinist of any reader but that is not so. Your case is all smoke and mirrors. Like the camera in the picture.

 

[MennoSota]

You rely on sophistry. There's no substance in your argument. The passages are not a restricted view because, for brevity's sake, they are pointed to with a single verse. We all have bibles available. The context is available to any who read. Yet the context doesn't abrogate the verses quoted. You assert that context will make a Calvinist of any reader but that is not so. Your case is all smoke and mirrors. Like the camera in the picture.

MC, you magnify one verse and claim it is saying something, yet when we look at the whole we see your magnification is wrong. The image I provided is an example of how you treat scripture.

 

[Andrew]

Careful, the L in Tulip means that God intended to save only the elect and that God loves only the elect and all this was planned from before creation. It means that every other human being was brought into the world to go to hell. Predestined to it. chosen as a vessel for dishonourable purposes by God from before creation and with no way to be saved.

God 'did' intend to save only his elect though. Does not God intend to save all believers?
No one likes the concept of hell, but in our natural state of Sin we all deserve it do we not?
We don't want "fair", "fair" is that we all should perish, God wills that not all should perish, God alone made that decision when he really didn't have to but God so loved the world you see. This does not mean that everyone in the world is made righteous and gets into heaven.
As far as predestination goes, God is outside of time: God can see the past present and future all at once... God is everywhere: God can see all places above and below... God is all powerful: God can choose to save who he wills and fortunately for the believer God chooses to save the believer! God has bestowed faith to the believer when he had no one over him to tell him to do so.. and what makes a believer without God making it possible to even be one? I say that to say this, for as man we can only see through a glass darkly, we can't see others as God sees others (knowing all) nor can we say "I choose that man!" as God can ...nor can we say to God "I chose you first!", we can only tell by the fruits of others... thus we pray for others and are commanded to Love our neighbors and bless those who curse us and to go out and preach the gospel.
There really is no bad news nor much of a difference with reformed theology, there is no such thing as "I think I believe" or "how do I know?" because it's simply yes, there is no in-between (only YES), may your yes be yes... in other words all believers are saved! It's the same Word in which believers have always known.. predestination is I guess a limited way of saying that God is sovereign and can see all things past and present and future and knows who he has chosen, every man is marked one way or another and according to Revelation God knows this and chose to reveal it to his elect (who btw are incapable of ever being fooled or tricked by the wiles of the devil/ruler of this world)
The sheep go to heaven and the goats go to hell.
If you believe In Christ -you are a believer and you are his.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God 'did' intend to save only his elect though.

God sent the Lord Jesus Christ to be the expiation for the sins of the whole world. The intention is to save all who are in Christ. All really means all. (1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.)

Does not God intend to save all believers?

Yes.

 

[Andrew]

The intention is to save all who are in Christ.

Amen brother.
Jesus saves all believers! The problem I have with most denominations is that they cause you to question if you are faithful enough, the bible states very clearly that if you believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord thou shall be saved. Jesus says he who believes in me shall have eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.
We should not grieve the Holy Spirit in which we are sealed until the great day of redemption. All believers go to Heaven, that is the promise, God loves his people MC.
We can agree yes?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Amen brother.
Jesus saves all believers! The problem I have with most denominations is that they cause you to question if you are faithful enough, the bible states very clearly that if you believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord thou shall be saved. Jesus says he who believes in me shall have eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.
We should not grieve the Holy Spirit in which we are sealed until the great day of redemption. All believers go to Heaven, that is the promise, God loves his people MC.
We can agree yes?

Agree? Isn't it my post that stated that "God sent the Lord Jesus Christ to be the expiation for the sins of the whole world. The intention is to save all who are in Christ. All really means all. (1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.)" and which says "Yes" to your question "Does not God intend to save all believers? "

Nevertheless the holy scriptures do in fact state that [The Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world. which refutes the L of TULIP. God did not set a limit on the expiatory sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ, he intended it to be sufficient for the whole world. That is the opposite of Limited atonement.

 

[MennoSota]

God sent the Lord Jesus Christ to be the expiation for the sins of the whole world.

So...God intends to save the whole world, but He fails to do so according to your theology?

The intention is to save all who are in Christ.

Notice you limit God's intention, saying God intends to save all who are "in Christ." Since not all the world are in Christ, here you teach limited atonement.

All really means all. (1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.)

Here you switch back, saying that all the sins of the entire world are removed by the atoning blood of Christ. You say that all humanity is made right in the eyes of God. Therefore, God judges all "in Christ" and declares them righteous. All must be saved by the propitiatory work of Christ. To say anyone goes to hell means that God rejected Jesus sacrifice declaring it insufficient as a payment for sin.

 

[MennoSota]

Agree? Isn't it my post that stated that "God sent the Lord Jesus Christ to be the expiation for the sins of the whole world. The intention is to save all who are in Christ. All really means all. (1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.)" and which says "Yes" to your question "Does not God intend to save all believers? "

Nevertheless the holy scriptures do in fact state that [The Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world. which refutes the L of TULIP. God did not set a limit on the expiatory sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ, he intended it to be sufficient for the whole world. That is the opposite of Limited atonement.

.