Sinless Mary

[Arsenios]

Our eternal life will not be in these bodies
because they still have the taint of sin of Adam's fall.

"The taint of sin of Adam's fall" is a euphemism for what we inherit from Adam...

From Adam we inherit DEATH...

THAT is why our eternal life will not be found in these bodies...

Our flesh will die but our souls live on...

That's why Mary was not sinless.

That doesn't follow...

We do not inherit sin from Adam...

We inherit death...

That is why all (sinners) have sinned...

The sin we commit because of the inheritance of death is all our own...

And it varies in degree from person to person...

Which demonstrates why repentance is accessible to the fallen...

The fallen are not necessarily sinful, but they will necessarily die...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So if there is no trace of something in the bible (like her sins) then they never existed and you are so sure that she kept every commandment (including every law of Moses) since she was born and because she was so absolutely and remarkably pure she was given the role as the sinless mother of Jesus?

This is way past the Law - Christ Himself did not keep each and every commandment of the Law - But He fulfilled them all... And did not sin...
The conception of Mary was itself a miracle of God's Grace bestowed on Joachim and Anna in their dotage...
As destined to become the Virgin Mother of the Incarnate God, it is perhaps excusable that she be conceived and born of such elderly parents...
She was a holy child committed to purity from her earliest beginnings...
It is why she was headed into a celibate marriage to Joseph, and could ask the Angel how she would get pregnant even when betrothed to marriage...
And suffer no consequence for unbelief of the angelic message from God...

She truly was and is a "one-off" in the history of fallen mankind in Adam...

As for minor sins - Of omission or ignorance or unknown sins - anything of that kind,
if there ever could have been any,
would have been purged from her when she conceived Christ in her womb...

Sinlessness is not predicated on doing every Levitical obedience all day each and every day of one's life...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yep, my dad, my brother, my nephews and niece, my grandparents, they all are saints. I'm a saint as well. So is [MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]. More than these, although it's up for debate with you since you deny so much that is biblical. [emoji41]

I know better than to take the bait that you've poisoned with wickedness. Thanks for your efforts, it lets me know where the poison is.

 

[MoreCoffee]

.... in heaven.

Pray tell: Now how does that substantiate that it is a matter of highest importance and greatest certainty possible that Mary UNIQUELY was CONCEIVED without original sin? LONG before she was in heaven?

It was by a unique grace granted to Blessed Mary by God that she was born without stain of original sin and lived a life free from wickedness by the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit who came upon her to cause the Lord, Jesus Christ, to be born of the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Josiah]

It was by a unique grace granted to Blessed Mary by God that she was born without stain of original sin and lived a life free from wickedness by the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit who came upon her to cause the Lord, Jesus Christ, to be born of the Blessed Virgin.

.... so is the new claim of one, single, unique, individual denomination (dogma since 1870). But as you indicate, there's nothing to remotely indicate it's true. (Always bothered me how the RCC so powerfully spreads things about Mary it doesn't know is true - what it said is the meaning of "gossip" and declared a sin, but I digress).

My question is not what a single denomination now says.... my question is, what shows it is true? That Mary UNIQUELY was CONCEIVED without original sin..... Arsenios digressed into an entirely different issue, whether EVERYONE in heaven now is sinless, but of course that has nothing UNIQUELY to do with Mary or with her conception or even with original sin ... nor with the claim that She was so while still on Earth.

 

[Andrew]

This is way past the Law - Christ Himself did not keep each and every commandment of the Law - But He fulfilled them all... And did not sin...
The conception of Mary was itself a miracle of God's Grace bestowed on Joachim and Anna in their dotage...
As destined to become the Virgin Mother of the Incarnate God, it is perhaps excusable that she be conceived and born of such elderly parents...
She was a holy child committed to purity from her earliest beginnings...
It is why she was headed into a celibate marriage to Joseph, and could ask the Angel how she would get pregnant even when betrothed to marriage...
And suffer no consequence for unbelief of the angelic message from God...

She truly was and is a "one-off" in the history of fallen mankind in Adam...

As for minor sins - Of omission or ignorance or unknown sins - anything of that kind,
if there ever could have been any,
would have been purged from her when she conceived Christ in her womb...

Sinlessness is not predicated on doing every Levitical obedience all day each and every day of one's life...


Arsenios

So her "minor sins" were vanquished as soon as she became pregnant with the Son of Man/God? None of those minor sins were really sins at all then if she was "sinless"... I mean.. right? I can't tell the difference between minor and major sins, for all I know I might be sinless if "minor sins" don't count... just pointing out that I find this very very difficult to accept, very little is written about Marys personal life but the little we have is that she called Jesus her Savior... you say its "from death", I just can't accept that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

.... so is the new claim of one, single, unique, individual denomination (dogma since 1870).

If only you knew history sufficiently to get dates more of less correct. The year was 1854.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So her "minor sins" were vanquished as soon as she became pregnant with the Son of Man/God? None of those minor sins were really sins at all then if she was "sinless"... I mean.. right? I can't tell the difference between minor and major sins, for all I know I might be sinless if "minor sins" don't count... just pointing out that I find this very very difficult to accept, very little is written about Marys personal life but the little we have is that she called Jesus her Savior... you say its "from death", I just can't accept that.

Is the question asked in your post genuine asking for knowledge or vagrant curiosity so that the idea that Blessed Mary was sinless can be made an object of ridicule?

 

[Andrew]

Is the question asked in your post genuine asking for knowledge or vagrant curiosity so that the idea that Blessed Mary was sinless can be made an object of ridicule?

I asked as a layman, I just don't see the difference between minor and major sin, I always thought sin was sin. I will never accuse Mary of any specific sins nor should I, nor should any one, but she is not Jesus you see, she was 100% human, Christ is 100% man and 100% God, I respect and honor Mary and I have no problem with her veneration, I encourage it I really do, but to call her sinless makes me believe that she was sinless before the conception of the Sinless Son of God, that makes no sense to me personally. If it's what you believe then please let no one take that away from you, but this is a discussion board and we all are just stating our personal view on the subject.
In the end what does it all matter anyway? She is a Saint in Heaven and we all love and adore her respectively, she was on Earth some 2000 years ago and gave birth to Christ our Lord! Our Love for her is just beyond words and we should all venerate her and look up to her 100% may we all meet her in Heaven, discussing her vulnerability to sin or sinless conduct as a human on Earth is 2000 years ago is irrelevant IMHO. Lets just leave it at that MC.

 

[Albion]

I asked as a layman, I just don't see the difference between minor and major sin, I always thought sin was sin.

Any good theologian would agree with you on that point, Andrew.

Members of the reformed denominations generally understand that sin is a condition which estranges Man from God and requires a Savior to remedy that situation. Members of the unreformed denominations generally think of sins as a series of demerits that have to be offset by whatever good dooby acts you can perform in life, with whichever side of the ledger looks better at the moment of your death determining your eternal fate.

 

[MennoSota]

I know better than to take the bait that you've poisoned with wickedness. Thanks for your efforts, it lets me know where the poison is.

LOL, run to Rome for your salvation and let the Bible continue to get dusty. Too bad you consider God's word to be poison while you drink down the poison of your church tradition.

 

[Arsenios]

I can't tell the difference between minor and major sins,

Rape of a child and shoplifting a candy bar is all the same to you?

[Mary] called Jesus her Savior...
you say its "from death",
I just can't accept that.

Wherefore as through one man sin entered the cosmos...
And death through that one sin...
In like manner death entered into all men...
Because of which all men have sinned...

Satan wants you dead in him...
Christ wants you to Live in Him...

Sin is the pivot...
Repentance from sin saves...
Because God Saves those who are repenting...

Salvation is a matter of life and death...
Life in Christ...
Or...
Death in Satan's dominion...

The choice is yours alone...
Repentance is your means...
The cross of repentance your Joy...
Union with Christ your Destination...

The Mystical Marriage of the Lamb...

Eph 5:32
This is a great Mystery:
but I am speaking
concerning Christ and the Church.


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Rape of a child and shoplifting a candy bar is all the same to you?

They aren't the same, but every sin estranges us from God. So they have the same effect, even though they are different in various other ways.

 

[Arsenios]

LOL, run to Rome for your salvation and let the Bible continue to get dusty.
Too bad you consider God's word to be poison while you drink down the poison of your church tradition.

SNOT-SLINGERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

They aren't the same, but every sin estranges us from God. So they have the same effect, even though they are different in various other ways.

God regards them differently...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

God regards them differently...


Arsenios

I already said that they are different. But any sin is destructive to our relationship with God. It is not as though God, who by nature is perfect, is okay with SOME sin so long as its "not like all that bad, man."

 

[Josiah]

"Those who see themselves as little sinners will embrace a little savior."

"Those who see themselves not needing saving won't accept a savior."

 

[Arsenios]

I already said that they are different. But any sin is destructive to our relationship with God. It is not as though God, who by nature is perfect, is okay with SOME sin so long as its "not like all that bad, man."

Maybe we should do a thread on sin...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's such fun ... all this endless fighting ... a theological war without end ... it is like those video games ... see who can blow up an enemy first always knowing that there'll be another enemy and then another ad infinitum

:smirk:

Of course, the subject matter for this war of words is serious.

Which makes the 'game' dangerous

For one's immortal soul

But you all seem intent on the battle

I'm going to watch some videos from HALO ...

a battle game where The Covenant battles against Earth

to decide if all life will be exterminated to end an infection of The Flood using the rings as the extermination weapons.

Let's hope that your battle is as ineffective in reality as the one in the game.

 

[Josiah]

Maybe we should do a thread on sin...

No need....

Couldn't be more simple....

The word literally means to fall short, to miss the target.

And the Bible clearly says what that target is: To be the equal of God in righteousness, holiness and love.

And that the consequences of sin is death - physical, spiritual and etermal.

Simple.


But one of Satan's lies is that we ain't so bad..... because he can convince us that we don't really need a SAVIOR (just a little help from a friend) then we are his.



Back to the topic....