Is your creed catholic, Catholic, or Christian?

[ImaginaryDay2]

In reciting the Apostle's creed, I will tend to recite it as:

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/apostles-creed - emphasis in original

However, my particular church has it printed as (and most recite it as) "the holy Christian church". If/when you recite the creed, what do you say, and why? My decision to state it as the holy catholic (small "c") church is the same as the reason given in the quote, as that is my understanding of how the term is used in the creed. For those that state it as the "holy Christian church", why is this distinction important for you?

PLEASE READ!!! - I understand that some do not adhere to or recite creeds. If you do not, please be respectful in this discussion. Thank you

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the mass we usually say the Nicene Creed. But sometimes we say the Apostle's creed and the wording that we use is this:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
At the words that follow, up to and including ‘the Virgin Mary’, all bow.
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.​

We use the word "catholic" because that is how the creed was written. The Nicene creed also used "catholic".

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
At the words that follow, up to and including ‘and became man’, all bow.
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

I made the word "catholic" bold so that it is easy to find and see.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, the Creed affirms the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.... the one, holy, catholic church the communion of saints. Not the RCC or LCMS or UCC or LDS or UMC or URC or EOC or any other denomination. It's the church Jesus establishes - the family of God, the family of faith, all brothers and sisters in Christ, all with the divine gift of faith in Jesus as the Savior, created by the Holy Spirit and headed by the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is the communion, the community, the oikos of saints.

 

[Albion]

To my knowledge, the Lutheran churches are the only ones who have substituted Christian for catholic, but be that as it may, I don't care for it since the two words are not interchangeable. Better to say catholic and know what you're saying and that it isn't a reference to the Church of Rome.

 

[MoreCoffee]

At the time that the creeds were written there was exactly one holy catholic and apostolic church, there were Gnostic sects, and Arian sects, and various other heretical sects but there was exactly one catholic church described as holy and apostolic.

 

[Lamb]

My church says Christian and the reason is so that visitors who come to the service don't panic upon hearing "catholic" and not knowing it's not "Catholic". Even when printed out not everyone will read.

 

[psalms 91]

At the time that the creeds were written there was exactly one holy catholic and apostolic church, there were Gnostic sects, and Arian sects, and various other heretical sects but there was exactly one catholic church described as holy and apostolic.

You continue to say this yet when we read the bible there were churchs scattered everywhere especially throughout Turkey and they all answered to Jerusalem with Jesus's brother James in charge. That is fact, not fiction so I think you are wrong when you continue to make this claim. As for the catholic versus Catholic that is just more confusing things that seem to come out of this church.

 

[Albion]

My church says Christian and the reason is so that visitors who come to the service don't panic upon hearing "catholic" and not knowing it's not "Catholic". Even when printed out not everyone will read.

That probably is the answer; but IMO it is a mistake to alter ones own statement of faith--which all the regular members recite as part of the worship service--because a visitor might not get it. Think of all the rest that such a visitor also might not get.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You continue to say this yet when we read the bible there were churchs scattered everywhere especially throughout Turkey and they all answered to Jerusalem with Jesus's brother James in charge. That is fact, not fiction so I think you are wrong when you continue to make this claim. As for the catholic versus Catholic that is just more confusing things that seem to come out of this church.

Brother psalms 91, of course there were many churches in the world when the Apostles' creed was written, a church in Corinth, one in Rome, one in Jerusalem and each of those churches had numerous locations with numerous congregations but all the churches and all the locations were part of one Church that was loyal to the teaching of Jesus Christ and the traditions of the Apostles in writing and as handed down by actions and word of mouth. The churches were not answerable to Jerusalem they answered to the apostles when the apostles were still alive and to apostolic tradition after the apostles died.

 

[psalms 91]

Brother psalms 91, of course there were many churches in the world when the Apostles' creed was written, a church in Corinth, one in Rome, one in Jerusalem and each of those churches had numerous locations with numerous congregations but all the churches and all the locations were part of one Church that was loyal to the teaching of Jesus Christ and the traditions of the Apostles in writing and as handed down by actions and word of mouth. The churches were not answerable to Jerusalem they answered to the apostles when the apostles were still alive and to apostolic tradition after the apostles died.

Then why then did Paul go to Jerusalem and the leaders there to discuss the gentiles coming in? Why was money collected to help support Jerusalem? And yes, James was the leader in Jerusalem and these many churchs were all following Jesus and His teachings and of course not only Paul but also Barnabas, and Timothy and others were traveling to these various churchys and Pauls letters to them and so on. Nowhere was Rome and a leader or pope ever mentioned. as being in Rome. Of course we know that Paul was kept there for a long time. The only leaders were in Jerusalem.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

My church says Christian and the reason is so that visitors who come to the service don't panic upon hearing "catholic" and not knowing it's not "Catholic". Even when printed out not everyone will read.

Then, imo, this does a dis-service to the visitors. We, as a church culture, have begun to veer from traditional understandings, and explanations of historical contexts. Growing up, I also recited what was on the page, or what I heard, maybe without understanding fully. But when educated on the meaning of the word, I understood. No-one changed it for me for my comfort or confusion. We have a duty to carry not only the message of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, but to be good stewards of our creeds - explaining meanings and contexts.

As an example - for those that recite "he descended into Hell" - why? For what purpose? Is that statement true? These are questions that are debated frequently, and not everyone is comfortable with the answer. For a time, it was removed when we recited the creed in the Presbyterian church where I grew up. With education and study, it was restored (it was always part of the historic creed, but they began reciting the phrase again).

Of course, it will be recited however it suits one's conscience - we are free to recite what we want - but we should educate the newcomer, rather than change to suit them.

 

[Lamb]

Then, imo, this does a dis-service to the visitors. We, as a church culture, have begun to veer from traditional understandings, and explanations of historical contexts. Growing up, I also recited what was on the page, or what I heard, maybe without understanding fully. But when educated on the meaning of the word, I understood. No-one changed it for me for my comfort or confusion. We have a duty to carry not only the message of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, but to be good stewards of our creeds - explaining meanings and contexts.

As an example - for those that recite "he descended into Hell" - why? For what purpose? Is that statement true? These are questions that are debated frequently, and not everyone is comfortable with the answer. For a time, it was removed when we recited the creed in the Presbyterian church where I grew up. With education and study, it was restored (it was always part of the historic creed, but they began reciting the phrase again).

Of course, it will be recited however it suits one's conscience - we are free to recite what we want - but we should educate the newcomer, rather than change to suit them.

At Faith, why do the creeds say “holy Christian Church” instead of “holy catholic Church”?

The original Greek language of the Apostles’ and Nicene creeds describes the Church as “catholic” (small c), which means “universal.” It declares that there is only one Christian Church on earth. As early as the 1400’s, however, “Christian Church” was commonly used and understood to mean the same as “catholic.”

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then why then did Paul go to Jerusalem and the leaders there to discuss the gentiles coming in? Why was money collected to help support Jerusalem? And yes, James was the leader in Jerusalem and these many churchs were all following Jesus and His teachings and of course not only Paul but also Barnabas, and Timothy and others were traveling to these various churchys and Pauls letters to them and so on. Nowhere was Rome and a leader or pope ever mentioned. as being in Rome. Of course we know that Paul was kept there for a long time. The only leaders were in Jerusalem.

Saint Paul gives his reasons in this passage:

Galatians 2:1-10 1 Next, after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, taking with me Barnabas and Titus. 2 And I went up according to revelation, and I debated with them about the Gospel that I am preaching among the Gentiles, but away from those who were pretending to be something, lest perhaps I might run, or have run, in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Gentile, was not compelled to be circumcised, 4 but only because of false brothers, who were brought in unknowingly. They entered secretly to spy on our liberty, which we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might reduce us to servitude. 5 We did not yield to them in subjection, even for an hour, in order that the truth of the Gospel would remain with you, 6 and away from those who were pretending to be something. (Whatever they might have been once, it means nothing to me. God does not accept the reputation of a man.) And those who were claiming to be something had nothing to offer me. 7 But it was to the contrary, since they had seen that the Gospel to the uncircumcised was entrusted to me, just as the Gospel to the circumcised was entrusted to Peter. 8 For he who was working the Apostleship to the circumcised in Peter, was also working in me among the Gentiles. 9 And so, when they had acknowledged the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who seemed like pillars, gave to me and to Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we would go to the Gentiles, while they went to the circumcised, 10 asking only that we should be mindful of the poor, which was the very thing that I also was solicitous to do.​

Saint Paul when to Jerusalem because that is where Peter, James, and John - all apostles chosen by Jesus Christ - were. He did not go because Jerusalem was the ruling church but because it was where the ruling apostles were.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I think the link provided in post 12 can make the argument either way, but (imo) more strongly for "catholic" (small "c") given the quote provided from the article itself:

The original Greek language of the Apostles’ and Nicene creeds describes the Church as “catholic” (small c), which means “universal.” It declares that there is only one Christian Church on earth. As early as the 1400’s, however, “Christian Church” was commonly used and understood to mean the same as “catholic.”

If something can be "commonly used and understood to mean the same..." why not explain that as the reason for using "catholic"?

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

My congregation says " one, holy, Christian and apostolic Church."

 

[MennoSota]

There is one creed, which I consider inspired. It is also the shortest.

I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

 

[Albion]

If something can be "commonly used and understood to mean the same..." why not explain that as the reason for using "catholic"?

Because these two words, Christian and catholic, do NOT mean the same thing and never did.

It's a creed. How could professing that you believe in "Christianity" be parallel to one, holy, and apostolic which you are also professing? It cannot. These four (one, holy, catholic, and apostolic) are all characteristics OF the Christian church or faith. The word catholic is one of those qualities or characteristics of the Christian church and faith that you confess that you believe in when you say the Creed.

 

[Josiah]

In reciting the Apostle's creed, I will tend to recite it as:



However, my particular church has it printed as (and most recite it as) "the holy Christian church". If/when you recite the creed, what do you say, and why? My decision to state it as the holy catholic (small "c") church is the same as the reason given in the quote, as that is my understanding of how the term is used in the creed. For those that state it as the "holy Christian church", why is this distinction important for you?

PLEASE READ!!! - I understand that some do not adhere to or recite creeds. If you do not, please be respectful in this discussion. Thank you

The ancient creed says "catholic." I agree with the creed.


I disagree with the ecclesiology of the RCC, EOC and LDS which insist that the church is a denomination (itself, of course - at least in fullness). I believe that the people of God are us - all to whom God has given the free gift of faith in Christ as the Savior, all who are one in this faith in Christ as Savior. ALL. No matter where they live, no matter whether they be on Earth or in Heaven, no matter what parish they hold membership or what denomination that parish may or may not belong to or be owned by. WE are the church - one, holy, catholic communion of faith... continuing the faith in Christ as Savior and the family begun with the Apostles (and thus Apostolic). Which is why I can embrace ALL the Christians here as my FULL, equal, unseperated brothers and sisters in Christ. IMO, the Holy Spirit creates the church by His giving of faith and Jesus is the Lord of the Church (He never resigned and appointed anyone to take over for Him).



- Josiah

 

[Arsenios]

Because these two words, Christian and catholic, do NOT mean the same thing and never did.

Well, the purpose of the Creed was to confess the unity of the Church, in all its various geographic locations... So that wherever Christians might be found, they would be confessing the one and same thing... So that a person in Jerusalem, visiting from England, would find himself at home in the Body of Christ...

And here we are all disagreeing about the Creed...

It was in the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Nicea, if I recall correctly, that the Canon was established in which the alteration of the Creed by anyone in the Ekklesia was forbidden... The Patriarch of the West, the Papal Head of the Latin Church in Rome, affirmed this Canon and Rome kept it, until its uncanonical violation in the west, I believe in Spain, where it worked its way slowly into Rome where it was uncanonically ADDED TO the Creed of Nicea the words: "...and the Son..."

In fact, the German Bishops who took over the Papacy in Rome in the 10th century, were so outraged that the East did not have the "Filioque" in their "version" of the Creed, that they DEMANDED to know why the East had REMOVED the Filioque FROM the Creed... They thought it had always been there, and understood their role as the Chair of Peter to exercise Papal Supremacy and compel the East to RETURN the Creed to its PRIOR form that included the Filioque which the East had obviously REMOVED FROM the Creed... A Monty Pythonesque tragedy slowly trainwrecking its way to the Reformation's disintegration of the Faith into innumerable competing confessions...

The Church is catholic - As is affirmed in the Creed...

This means that it is fully and completely present in each and all its places of worship, however large, or however small...

We believe in One Church, because Christ is One...
We believe in the Holy Church, because Christ is Holy...
We believe in the Catholic Church, because Christ is fully everywhere Present...
We believe in the Apostolic Church, because Christ discipled His Apostles to establish the Ekklesia...

It is a mistake to dumb down the Faith in worship services in Church for the sake of visitors...
Better to elevate them unto the Kingdom of God...

The Creed was not written as an exercise in merely saying true things about the Faith of Christ...

It was written as the Unifying Confession of ALL Christians at ALL times in ALL Places...

Which is why the addition of the Filioque which altered the Creed was so eggregious...

And justifies its further devolution at the hands of the illegitimate Children of the Filioque...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Well, the purpose of the Creed was to confess the unity of the Church, in all its various geographic locations... So that wherever Christians might be found, they would be confessing the one and same thing... So that a person in Jerusalem, visiting from England, would find himself at home in the Body of Christ...

And here we are all disagreeing about the Creed...

It was in the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Nicea, if I recall correctly, that the Canon was established in which the alteration of the Creed by anyone in the Ekklesia was forbidden... The Patriarch of the West, the Papal Head of the Latin Church in Rome, affirmed this Canon and kept it until its uncanonical violation in the west, I believe in Spain, where it worked its way slowly into Rome where it was uncanonically ADDED TO the Creed of Nicea the words: "...and the Son..."

In fact, the German Bishops who took over the Papacy in Rome in the 10th century, were so outraged that the East did not have the "Filioque" in their "version" of the Creed, that they DEMANDED to know why the East had REMOVED the Filioque FROM the Creed... They thought it had always been there, and understood their role as the Chair of Peter to exercise Papal Supremacy and compel the East to RETURN the Creed to its PRIOR form that included the Filioque which the East had obviously REMOVED FROM the Creed... A Monty Pythonesque tragedy slowly trainwrecking its way to the Reformation's disintegration of the Faith into innumerable competing understandings...

The Church is catholic - As is affirmed in the Creed...

This means that it is fully and completely present in each and all its places of worship, however large, or however small...

We believe in One Church, because Christ is One...
We believe in the Holy Church, because Christ is Holy...
We believe in the Catholic Church, because Christ is fully everywhere Present...
We believe in the Apostolic Church, because Christ discipled His Apostles to establish the Ekklesia...

It is a mistake to dumb down the Faith in worship services in Church for the sake of visitors...
Better to elevate them unto the Kingdom of God...

The Creed was not written as an exercise in merely saying true things about the Faith of Christ...

It was written as the Unifying Confession of ALL Christians at ALL times in ALL Places...

Which is why the addition of the Filioque which altered the Creed was so eggregious...

And justifies its further devolution at the hands of the illegitimate Children of the Filioque...


Arsenios

Yeh, so?