The hypocrisy of politicians and lock downs

Lämmchen

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California lawmakers take a trip to Hawaii for a convention that could have been done on Zoom like everyone else's meetings around the globe, Governor of California goes to a party, Philadelphia mayor goes to a bar prior to lock down, and so many more.

How can anyone take a lock down seriously when support of Biden in masses on the streets is cheered but then businesses have to limit their customers again and some businesses forced to close? It's not right.
 

tango

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California lawmakers take a trip to Hawaii for a convention that could have been done on Zoom like everyone else's meetings around the globe, Governor of California goes to a party, Philadelphia mayor goes to a bar prior to lock down, and so many more.

How can anyone take a lock down seriously when support of Biden in masses on the streets is cheered but then businesses have to limit their customers again and some businesses forced to close? It's not right.

This is the thing that gets me. We have so many governor-turned-emperor types who issue rules they assure us are based on data but won't release the data, the rules fly in the face of basic common sense, then the governors ignore their own rules but still wonder why the people don't fall into line like good little peons. Then, as you say, a protest against lockdowns is presented as dangerous, irresponsible, even reckless and yet people flocking into Times Square to cheer Biden's apparent electoral win is just fine. And of course the media crying wolf for months on end couldn't possibly produce a people sick of hearing endless blathering about how afraid we're supposed to be.

We're told the virus doesn't care what we believe but apparently the virus knows what's safe and what isn't. Apparently it's safe to stand in line at Walmart but deadly to stand in line to vote. We can go to Target but can't go to church. We can go to a bar but can only drink alcohol if we have a meal (how the virus knows who to infect remains a mystery) and if you have a beer after 10pm the virus comes out with a vengeance. If seven people gather for a picnic it's deadly but if 70,000 people gather for a protest march it's safe (obviously only if the protest is against something the left dislikes - we know that a BLM protest is just fine but protesting government overreach is reckless).

Honestly, from here I"m surprised anybody takes the ever-changing rules seriously.
 

jsimms435

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It is worse now than it was when we were on lockdown and nobody really seems to care. There are hundreds of more people in the hospital now than in July
 

hedrick

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It is worse now than it was when we were on lockdown and nobody really seems to care. There are hundreds of more people in the hospital now than in July
Depends upon your state. I'm in NJ. Things have gotten worse, but it's not close to the Spring. Our governor is trying to take action based on the actual observed causes of spread, and to minimize impact on other things. We also have a special category of "first amendment protected activities," which aren't as tightly restricted. I haven't heard of other states doing that.
 

Lämmchen

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It is worse now than it was when we were on lockdown and nobody really seems to care. There are hundreds of more people in the hospital now than in July

Aren't the hospital stays shorter though due to better treatment?
 

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The recovery rate is better now due to the sometimes trial and error development of better therapies. However the infection rate is growing rapidly. At the beginning of the month people were dying about a thousand per day but yesterday it reached 2000 per day. Some states have actually maxed out their medical capacity. This is a national emergency and the President is missing in action trying to subvert democracy and save his butt telling lie after lie after lie.
 

tango

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The recovery rate is better now due to the sometimes trial and error development of better therapies. However the infection rate is growing rapidly. At the beginning of the month people were dying about a thousand per day but yesterday it reached 2000 per day. Some states have actually maxed out their medical capacity. This is a national emergency and the President is missing in action trying to subvert democracy and save his butt telling lie after lie after lie.

Yawn, I guess it was only a matter of time before our first helping of orangemanbad.
 

Lämmchen

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The recovery rate is better now due to the sometimes trial and error development of better therapies. However the infection rate is growing rapidly. At the beginning of the month people were dying about a thousand per day but yesterday it reached 2000 per day. Some states have actually maxed out their medical capacity. This is a national emergency and the President is missing in action trying to subvert democracy and save his butt telling lie after lie after lie.

How are we sure that the infection rate has really risen when we weren't testing as much months ago? I am still wondering if I had the virus back on Feb 9 when I had all the symptoms except a cough. It happened quickly and then disappeared quickly too except for trouble breathing but I didn't correlate that to the sickness until later on. I also had the red eyes and thought I was getting pink eye...which is another symptom! Edited to add that I had other most of the other symptoms as well and have it here in a thread in the private women's forum because I remember wondering if I was coming down with the flu. But the flu doesn't have all those symptoms and lasts much longer.

Because people can be asymptomatic there are probably thousands who have had it and didn't even know! Not everyone is going to go to the hospital and not everyone will die. If we had more reliable antibody testing we could have a more reasonable database to go by and know how widespread the virus is/was and a better death rate.
 

tango

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How are we sure that the infection rate has really risen when we weren't testing as much months ago? I am still wondering if I had the virus back on Feb 9 when I had all the symptoms except a cough. It happened quickly and then disappeared quickly too except for trouble breathing but I didn't correlate that to the sickness until later on. I also had the red eyes and thought I was getting pink eye...which is another symptom! Edited to add that I had other most of the other symptoms as well and have it here in a thread in the private women's forum because I remember wondering if I was coming down with the flu. But the flu doesn't have all those symptoms and lasts much longer.

Because people can be asymptomatic there are probably thousands who have had it and didn't even know! Not everyone is going to go to the hospital and not everyone will die. If we had more reliable antibody testing we could have a more reasonable database to go by and know how widespread the virus is/was and a better death rate.

It's also interesting to see that the death rate doesn't seem to be rising anywhere near as fast as the infection rate. I'm sure some of that is due to improved treatments but it seems also that the virus is a lot less deadly then we've been told. I know a few elderly people in my area who have tested positive and about all the virus has done to them is left them very tired. Maybe we will still see a sudden surge in deaths, maybe we won't. It's just increasingly hard to take much of the news seriously any more.
 

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Remember, it takes a while for people to die. so deaths go up later. It’s now going up exponentially. We seem on track to have the same death rate as in the Spring. i think a lot of the reason there are more infections is that testing is better now. We didn’t catch as many in the Spring. Indeed we’re almost certainly still missing a lot. most people think treatment has improved, but a lower percent fatality could well be an illusion, due to the fact that we catch more infections now.
 

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Remember, it takes a while for people to die. so deaths go up later. It’s now going up exponentially. We seem on track to have the same death rate as in the Spring. i think a lot of the reason there are more infections is that testing is better now. We didn’t catch as many in the Spring. Indeed we’re almost certainly still missing a lot. most people think treatment has improved, but a lower percent fatality could well be an illusion, due to the fact that we catch more infections now.

Yes, it takes a while. But if the issue is that we're catching more infections it means the virus is a lot less deadly than we were first told. I'd say that's a pretty good "illusion" - it would seem more accurate to say the higher fatality rate we were told was the illusion, no?

ETA: It also makes me wonder whether the two doctors in the video that constantly got censored, who were saying the incidence of the virus was vastly more widespread than we were being told and therefore the fatality rate was much lower than we were being told, were onto something.
 
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ImaginaryDay2

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California lawmakers take a trip to Hawaii for a convention that could have been done on Zoom like everyone else's meetings around the globe, Governor of California goes to a party, Philadelphia mayor goes to a bar prior to lock down, and so many more.

How can anyone take a lock down seriously when support of Biden in masses on the streets is cheered but then businesses have to limit their customers again and some businesses forced to close? It's not right.
You're correct about all of this, and should absolutely question it. However, any supporters of any cause should be taken to task. Why only Biden, except that he may not be to someone's liking?
 

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Yes, it takes a while. But if the issue is that we're catching more infections it means the virus is a lot less deadly than we were first told. I'd say that's a pretty good "illusion" - it would seem more accurate to say the higher fatality rate we were told was the illusion, no?

ETA: It also makes me wonder whether the two doctors in the video that constantly got censored, who were saying the incidence of the virus was vastly more widespread than we were being told and therefore the fatality rate was much lower than we were being told, were onto something.
You make a good point with fatalities. Someone who presents with chronic medical issues that may have contributed to their death, but was infected with COVID at the same time, may be ruled a death due to COVID without consideration of other health risks/factors. If, say, someone presented with COVID, but experienced heart failure, would it be ruled a COVID death?
 

tango

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You're correct about all of this, and should absolutely question it. However, any supporters of any cause should be taken to task. Why only Biden, except that he may not be to someone's liking?

Probably because when people who lean right politically gather the left-wing media gushes about how recklessly irresponsible they are and yet when those on the left gather in great numbers the same media is noticeably silent about it. The problem is the double-standard. Trump is reckless for not wearing a mask but Gavin Newsom just shrugs and says he should have done better. Chris Cuomo vocally lambasts those who don't wear masks but has apparently been seen not wearing a mask himself. Nancy Pelosi was videoed walking around a hair salon with no mask but the left-leaning media gave her a free pass because apparently she was "set up". Because, you know, the rules only apply to the little people and not to the people who write them.

What's particularly curious is that apparently Gavin Newsom was enjoying his dinner (without mask, naturally) in the presence of some of California's top medical people. If those at the top don't feel it necessary to cover their faces I wonder why they expect us to - they clearly don't believe that masks are useful so they don't really get to complain when the rest of us are reluctant to obey their rules.
 

Lämmchen

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You're correct about all of this, and should absolutely question it. However, any supporters of any cause should be taken to task. Why only Biden, except that he may not be to someone's liking?

I think that there is a huge hypocrisy all over, from the media to people on social media who refuse to jeer at those out in the masses of their pet groups or politicians but then condemn someone who doesn't believe as they do or follow the person they do. If it's wrong for one group then it should be wrong for all? Or if it's okay for one group then it should be okay for all.
 

tango

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You make a good point with fatalities. Someone who presents with chronic medical issues that may have contributed to their death, but was infected with COVID at the same time, may be ruled a death due to COVID without consideration of other health risks/factors. If, say, someone presented with COVID, but experienced heart failure, would it be ruled a COVID death?

It's hard to say given we just get a lot of anecdotal evidence. From what I heard in the early days the CDC refused to differentiate someone who died of COVID from someone who died with COVID, and I know a few people who lost family members due to unrelated health issues but found their death certificates said they died of COVID.

A key problem is that the fatality rate is a pretty simple concept - how many people died of it divided by how many people had it. The trouble is we've never known how many people have been infected, other than being confident it's a lot higher than official figures (this isn't entirely unreasonable, given people with no symptoms would have no reason to ever be tested). The other problem is that it's hard to believe the death rate, given the issues that muddy the figures. So we're being told a fraction but we can't know what the numerator is other than it's probably less than we're told, we can't possibly know the denominator and anyone who suggests it's much higher than we're told gets censored, which means just about any figure we're given is all but worthless.

Now it's looking more and more like the fatality rate is far lower than we were first told but apparently we're supposed to go back to hiding under our beds and cowering again because the media decided to start howling some more. Curiously the media doesn't seem to understand that if you present life as if it were a choice between "hide under the bed and shake in fear" or "you will die of COVID", sooner or later people stop listening to anything they say. So here we are now, with people not really listening to what the media says and they really only have themselves to blame. They've cried wolf for too long. Maybe now the wolf really is at the door, maybe it isn't. It's just hard to tell for sure.
 

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Yes, it takes a while. But if the issue is that we're catching more infections it means the virus is a lot less deadly than we were first told. I'd say that's a pretty good "illusion" - it would seem more accurate to say the higher fatality rate we were told was the illusion, no?

ETA: It also makes me wonder whether the two doctors in the video that constantly got censored, who were saying the incidence of the virus was vastly more widespread than we were being told and therefore the fatality rate was much lower than we were being told, were onto something.
The fatality rate is complex. Estimates take into account the fact that not all cases were reported. If you look just at reported cases, you'd get a fatality rate of 2%. Everyone agrees that this is too high. In the Spring the fatality estimate I believed was 0.5% or a bit higher. (Here's the most recent estimate I've seen. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-covid-deaths-infection-fatality-ratio.html. It's about 1%.)

I haven't seen estimates for the current spike. My point is that looking at the reported cases and seeing that we don't see as many deaths as in the past doesn't work, because we're probably getting more reported cases. But that's looking at conclusions a layman draws from the reported numbers. The actual fatality rate that people quote isn't based on reported cases, but estimates of actual.

I'd guess that that real rate has also gone down somewhat. There are better treatments than in the Spring. But you can't use the case numbers you see in the press to verify that.

Hmmm.... here's something discussing the decrease over time: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/11/03/death-rates-have-fallen-for-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-as-treatments-improve/. However it may be slightly misleading. In the Spring hospitals were severely limited in capacity. It's reasonable to assume that a larger fraction of people who are infected are now going to the hospital. That would tend to lower the death rate in hospitals. That rate isn't quie comparable to the overall IFR, the fraction of all people infected who die, which is what most people mean by death rate.
 
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hedrick

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It's hard to say given we just get a lot of anecdotal evidence. From what I heard in the early days the CDC refused to differentiate someone who died of COVID from someone who died with COVID, and I know a few people who lost family members due to unrelated health issues but found their death certificates said they died of COVID.
I'm not sure how big an issue that was. The problem is that simply having the virus in you doesn't kill you. What kills you is lung failure, which is pneumonia, or heart failure, which is heart attack. So everyone who dies has what could be regarded as a second condition. Indeed the way the Chinese hid it originally was by reported those deaths as from pneumonia rather than Covid. Technically that was even true, but misleading.
 

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I do find Gavin‘s actions disgusting. And he’s not the only one. But that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about the threat.
 

tango

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I'm not sure how big an issue that was. The problem is that simply having the virus in you doesn't kill you. What kills you is lung failure, which is pneumonia, or heart failure, which is heart attack. So everyone who dies has what could be regarded as a second condition. Indeed the way the Chinese hid it originally was by reported those deaths as from pneumonia rather than Covid. Technically that was even true, but misleading.

With anecdotal evidence it's always hard to know just how much of a problem it is. My friend whose elderly parent died of a heart attack said they hadn't had COVID at all but it mysteriously appeared as a primary cause of death on the certificate. Sometimes it seems like the reporting is more or less equivalent to finding someone who lost control of a motorcycle and slammed into a bridge only to be reported as having died of indigestion because they had a packet of Tums in their pocket. You never know, maybe a pain from indigestion caused them to be distracted and lose control.
 
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