The Earth iks Small, Flat and Unmoving Says the Bible

Josiah

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The Earth is Small, Flat and Unmoving Says the Bible

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9S2KuVKNEg


Here's what the BIBLE states:

The Earth is SQUARE See Revelation 7:1, Revelation 20:7-8, Isaiah 11:12 and many more!

The Earth is FLAT: Psalm 67:7, Isaiah 45:22, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 72:8 and so many more!

The Earth is SMALL: Daniel 4:11, Daniel 4:20, Matthew 4:8 and many, many more!

The Earth is IMMOBLE: 1 Chronicles 16:33, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10 and many more!

It's all right there!!!!




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Josiah

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Now, I do have a point....


IMO, the Bible is INERRANT. It is not (and cannot be) wrong. WE however can be wrong.

No one ever reads the Bible with total objectivity. EVERYONE brings their "world view", a host of perspectives and things we just accept as true, ways we SEE things. We come with glasses on. And those glasses are a product of the culture and age in which we find ourselves; a result of our education (formal and informal), the ways those around us caused us to "see" things and interpret things. It is not possible to take off our glasses, BUT it is possible to realize what the prescription is to those glasses, how they are impacting our "perception." In a sense, we have "trained" our brain.... and that's where we see and understand. And this includes the Bible. And everything else for that matter. This reality is most dangerous when people don't realize their assumptions, the "RX" of their "glasses."


IMO, the Earth is some 25,000 miles around. It's essentially a ball. So, when I view the video above, I immediately thinks "He's NUTS!" because I'm 99.99% sure the Earth is fairly big and a ball. He CANNOT be right. And of course the Bible CANNOT be wrong. So....the "problem" is not in what the Bible STATES but how he's "seeing" it. I think MOST of us probably react the same way. Thus, you can not only find LOTS of Christians who are absolutely passionate and sincere in insisting the planet we live on is SMALL, SQUARE, FLAT and IMMOBILE but are angry at science for LYING to us, making up all this stuff because they want to discredit the Bible and the Church and God (they are the voice of Satan in our world).


IMO, we share much of the "world view" of the Greeks and Romans, who had a very materialistic view of things. And especially for the past 200 - 250 years, we tend to be very scientific... with an MODERN view of numbers/math, physics, astrophysics, biology, etc. It might science of a century or more ago, but MODERN nonetheless. MATTER exists and it matters. There are natural LAWS that exist and they are predictable. People may believe in miracles or prayer - there CAN be exceptions or interruptions to all this, but it's still the norm, the rule, the way things are unless God (or whatever) intervenes mightily to set it aside for a moment (and even then, we are apt to think God USES science and natural Law for His purposes). I don't think we realize what an ENORMOUS product we are of the materialistic, natural perspective we have. It was drilled into us from birth. Which is partly why the video above strikes us as so WEIRD.


In "seeing" Scripture (and really ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING), there are two options: Exegesis is to take from. To see what IS THERE (what we'd see if we could take off our glasses) and conclude something (which OUR glasses will want to be reasonable, rational, scientific) and Eisegesis is to put into. To see what comes through our glasses as interpreted by our trained, conditioned brain. And conclude something (always to confirm what we "see" through our glasses).


The man in the video has his "glasses" (WE ALL DO!!!) and reports what he thus 'sees' (in pretty amazing eisegesis). Actually, it's amazing! How can ANYONE raised in our UBER material/scientific world "read" these verses as he does? What powerful glasses! But.... maybe not. Maybe he is EXACTLY what we'd expect: IMPUTING a mathematial/scientific world view. "Four" means 4 - a numeral between three and five, so "four corners" means well four corners. It's how math works. It's how science works. "World" and "Earth" and "earth" are all the same thing: the third rock from the sun (we've seen a photo of it taken from the Moon). If something doesn't move then it doesn't rotate. Maybe this guy is being VERY smart, very modern! Maybe our English classes (where we've seen figures of speech) is the problem this guy is exposing? OR..... maybe he making a fundamental mistake: His "glasses" telling him that all these verses are speaking about science, math, material, nature - and actually, NONE OF THAT is "there" AT ALL, our "glasses" are putting all that there?


I'm not sure this is easy (especially since we can't take our glasses off). But here's MY hunch: The ancient Hebrews who penned these verses didn't have glasses with an RX that included geology or astrophysics or biology.... And probably "world" and "earth" had nothing whatsoever to do with planets. They were speaking of GOD and our relationship to GOD. Their "genius" was not 21st Century math and physics and geology but theology. Their RX had a powerful GOD aspects whereas ours don't (although we can pop that in when we want). The video's "mistake" is assuming all the writers of the Bible had the same RX in their glasses as he does.


I'm limiting the discussion here to issues of theology and science, BUT I'm keenly and rather constantly aware that it impacts everything. How I understand politics and the affairs around me..... how I 'see' society and social issues.... and yes, how I see Theology.

To ME, it's helpful to get to know my glasses. Perhaps to stop and NOTICE what's actually there and what has been inserted by my glasses? And BECAUSE I'm by training a scientist, because I'm powerfully "wired" that way (MORE than it is POSSIBLE for me to realize), because I 'see' through those glasses, I am APT to 'see' the stuff of science where it isn't. AND thus, to maybe miss the genius of what IS there? And I doubt I'm alone in this.



End of philosophical musings, lol




.
 
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Andrew

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Now, I do have a point....
What about tectonics? Obviously the Earth isn't shaking us around, but the lands do slowly drift.
The bible never addresses a flat Earth nor a globe Earth.

However I do like watching flat earth debates online.
One fellow made a point that if the Earth is round than why would they build a tower to Heaven if it technically has no direction? On a flat Earth they could build it straight upward to Heaven.

Now let's not be silly Josiah, you don't believe the Earth is flat, and a flat earth theory is no miracle story... I have the feeling you made this thread to make a point towards literal bible believers, so you bring in the flat earth theory?

I'll watch your video and we can discuss how we agree that we agree.
If you ever want to talk about dismissing miracle events in the name of science we have a thread for that as well ;)
 

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Watched your video for kicks.
At least with this we can presently observe, however we shouldn't dismiss miracles that happened in the past.
Btw I think they are sending people to the moon in a few years so this should settle it once and for all, see you there brother! I imagine from the moon the Earth looks like a circle, something the Bible believes as well ;)
 

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.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9S2KuVKNEg


Here's what the BIBLE states:

The Earth is SQUARE See Revelation 7:1, Revelation 20:7-8, Isaiah 11:12 and many more!

The Earth is FLAT: Psalm 67:7, Isaiah 45:22, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 72:8 and so many more!

The Earth is SMALL: Daniel 4:11, Daniel 4:20, Matthew 4:8 and many, many more!

The Earth is IMMOBLE: 1 Chronicles 16:33, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10 and many more!

It's all right there!!!!




.
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Isaiah 40:22 -NASB

Since when is a circle square?
Since when is a circle flat?



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Josiah

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WI have the feeling you made this thread to make a point towards literal bible believers

"Literal"... what? Ah, that's my point.

No, this has nothing to do with miracles. In fact, in our modern world view, a force big enough CAN cause the laws of nature to change (witness Black Holes, for example); most modern people believe in miracles (whether or not they are Christians) but they still assume a view of science, numbers, physics, etc.... just that such can be "set aside" The video doesn't hold that it's a miracle that the world is flat, square, small and immobile - he is a bible believer. MY question: is he? Or is he simply making a problem obvious... but one really quite common among us all?
 

Andrew

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"Literal"... what? Ah, that's my point.

No, this has nothing to do with miracles. In fact, in our modern world view, a force big enough CAN cause the laws of nature to change (witness Black Holes, for example); most modern people believe in miracles (whether or not they are Christians) but they still assume a view of science, numbers, physics, etc.... just that such can be "set aside" The video doesn't hold that it's a miracle that the world is flat, square, small and immobile - he is a bible believer. MY question: is he? Or is he simply making a problem obvious... but one really quite common among us all?
He is making the Bible say something it doesn't, he may be a Christian, but he is twisting scripture and causing confusion, it doesn't bother me though.
If I were to bet my soul that the world is a globe I would not, if I were to be my soul that the world is flat I would not.
Flat Earthers don't believe the Earth is a square with "four corners" anyway, they believe that Antarctica makes up a circle around our known world, they believe there is more land on the other side which is inhabited by reptilian overlords ;)
 

Josiah

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RichWh1

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Actually, the words perhaps say EXACTLY what he is. See post #2.
The Bible says the earth is a sphere not a square or flat!


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tango

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Words like "small" are subjective. Compared to a mountain I am small. Compared to me a mouse is small. Compared to a mouse a flea is small. But the flea might look at the mouse and be awestruck by just how big it is.

Words like immobile require context. Does "immobile" mean totally non-moving in any sense at all? If I lie down and make no movements at all other than things like breathing and my heart beating, am I immobile? We might say that I am on the basis I'm not moving, but what if I'm in the back of a van while someone else drives? I'm not moving but the van is so, even though I'm not moving relative to the van, I am moving relative to the road underneath.

Square - someone already mentioned Scriptural reference to "the circle of the earth".

Flat - aside from localised lumps and bumps the earth is pretty flat from where I'm standing. I can look out of my window and see some hills and valleys but nothing to suggest the earth is broadly ball-shaped.

Gotta love the difference between something being literal and something being figurative. When I was a child and did something wrong my utterance that "my dad's going to kill me" didn't mean I expected my life to end shortly after he got home from work.
 

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Now, I do have a point....


IMO, the Bible is INERRANT. It is not (and cannot be) wrong. WE however can be wrong.

No one ever reads the Bible with total objectivity. EVERYONE brings their "world view", a host of perspectives and things we just accept as true, ways we SEE things. We come with glasses on. And those glasses are a product of the culture and age in which we find ourselves; a result of our education (formal and informal), the ways those around us caused us to "see" things and interpret things. It is not possible to take off our glasses, BUT it is possible to realize what the prescription is to those glasses, how they are impacting our "perception." In a sense, we have "trained" our brain.... and that's where we see and understand. And this includes the Bible. And everything else for that matter. This reality is most dangerous when people don't realize their assumptions, the "RX" of their "glasses."


IMO, the Earth is some 25,000 miles around. It's essentially a ball. So, when I view the video above, I immediately thinks "He's NUTS!" because I'm 99.99% sure the Earth is fairly big and a ball. He CANNOT be right. And of course the Bible CANNOT be wrong. So....the "problem" is not in what the Bible STATES but how he's "seeing" it. I think MOST of us probably react the same way. Thus, you can not only find LOTS of Christians who are absolutely passionate and sincere in insisting the planet we live on is SMALL, SQUARE, FLAT and IMMOBILE but are angry at science for LYING to us, making up all this stuff because they want to discredit the Bible and the Church and God (they are the voice of Satan in our world).


IMO, we share much of the "world view" of the Greeks and Romans, who had a very materialistic view of things. And especially for the past 200 - 250 years, we tend to be very scientific... with an MODERN view of numbers/math, physics, astrophysics, biology, etc. It might science of a century or more ago, but MODERN nonetheless. MATTER exists and it matters. There are natural LAWS that exist and they are predictable. People may believe in miracles or prayer - there CAN be exceptions or interruptions to all this, but it's still the norm, the rule, the way things are unless God (or whatever) intervenes mightily to set it aside for a moment (and even then, we are apt to think God USES science and natural Law for His purposes). I don't think we realize what an ENORMOUS product we are of the materialistic, natural perspective we have. It was drilled into us from birth. Which is partly why the video above strikes us as so WEIRD.


In "seeing" Scripture (and really ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING), there are two options: Exegesis is to take from. To see what IS THERE (what we'd see if we could take off our glasses) and conclude something (which OUR glasses will want to be reasonable, rational, scientific) and Eisegesis is to put into. To see what comes through our glasses as interpreted by our trained, conditioned brain. And conclude something (always to confirm what we "see" through our glasses).


The man in the video has his "glasses" (WE ALL DO!!!) and reports what he thus 'sees' (in pretty amazing eisegesis). Actually, it's amazing! How can ANYONE raised in our UBER material/scientific world "read" these verses as he does? What powerful glasses! But.... maybe not. Maybe he is EXACTLY what we'd expect: IMPUTING a mathematial/scientific world view. "Four" means 4 - a numeral between three and five, so "four corners" means well four corners. It's how math works. It's how science works. "World" and "Earth" and "earth" are all the same thing: the third rock from the sun (we've seen a photo of it taken from the Moon). If something doesn't move then it doesn't rotate. Maybe this guy is being VERY smart, very modern! Maybe our English classes (where we've seen figures of speech) is the problem this guy is exposing? OR..... maybe he making a fundamental mistake: His "glasses" telling him that all these verses are speaking about science, math, material, nature - and actually, NONE OF THAT is "there" AT ALL, our "glasses" are putting all that there?


I'm not sure this is easy (especially since we can't take our glasses off). But here's MY hunch: The ancient Hebrews who penned these verses didn't have glasses with an RX that included geology or astrophysics or biology.... And probably "world" and "earth" had nothing whatsoever to do with planets. They were speaking of GOD and our relationship to GOD. Their "genius" was not 21st Century math and physics and geology but theology. Their RX had a powerful GOD aspects whereas ours don't (although we can pop that in when we want). The video's "mistake" is assuming all the writers of the Bible had the same RX in their glasses as he does.


I'm limiting the discussion here to issues of theology and science, BUT I'm keenly and rather constantly aware that it impacts everything. How I understand politics and the affairs around me..... how I 'see' society and social issues.... and yes, how I see Theology.

To ME, it's helpful to get to know my glasses. Perhaps to stop and NOTICE what's actually there and what has been inserted by my glasses? And BECAUSE I'm by training a scientist, because I'm powerfully "wired" that way (MORE than it is POSSIBLE for me to realize), because I 'see' through those glasses, I am APT to 'see' the stuff of science where it isn't. AND thus, to maybe miss the genius of what IS there? And I doubt I'm alone in this.



End of philosophical musings, lol




.
Ah ok, you added to this post.
Indeed we see things through a glass darkly, it doesn't take away though the simple implications and logical common sense in many of the "stories", when I read about God destroying all flesh I take it as literal as I read it... when people cherry pick verses to create a theory however, it's not worth my time. The Bible uses a lot of quaint poetic phrases to paint a picture or insight, the Bible also uses longer not so poetic detailed stories to tell us exactly what the picture is, some are subtle and some are bold. imo
 

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Words like "small" are subjective. Compared to a mountain I am small. Compared to me a mouse is small. Compared to a mouse a flea is small. But the flea might look at the mouse and be awestruck by just how big it is.

Words like immobile require context. Does "immobile" mean totally non-moving in any sense at all? If I lie down and make no movements at all other than things like breathing and my heart beating, am I immobile? We might say that I am on the basis I'm not moving, but what if I'm in the back of a van while someone else drives? I'm not moving but the van is so, even though I'm not moving relative to the van, I am moving relative to the road underneath.

Square - someone already mentioned Scriptural reference to "the circle of the earth".

Flat - aside from localised lumps and bumps the earth is pretty flat from where I'm standing. I can look out of my window and see some hills and valleys but nothing to suggest the earth is broadly ball-shaped.

Gotta love the difference between something being literal and something being figurative. When I was a child and did something wrong my utterance that "my dad's going to kill me" didn't mean I expected my life to end shortly after he got home from work.
Exactly. The world does seem flat to me and although we are on a ball blasting through space it doesn't change the fact that we are on stable flat land
 

Josiah

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Indeed we see things through a glass darkly, it doesn't take away though the simple implications and logical common sense in many of the "stories", when I read about God destroying all flesh I take it as literal as I read it...
MY point is there is possibly a difference between what is objectively THERE and what you "see" (or the" implications" and "logic" and "common sense" etc., etc. that you mention). All those things you stress are the "glasses" you wear, the "prescription" of them, and they are YOURS, and they do impact what you "see." Being aware of the "RX" of YOUR glasses may help you see the "stuff" YOU bring to the issue, a bit of "eisegesis." We all do it. With everything. To one degree or another. Typically, with ZERO awareness.



.
 

tango

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MY point is there is possibly a difference between what is objectively THERE and what you "see" (or the implications" and "logic" and "common sense" etc., etc. that you mention). All those things you stress are the "glasses" you wear, and they are YOURS, and they do impact what you "see." Being aware of the "RX" of YOUR glasses may help you see the "stuff" YOU bring to the issue, a bit of "eisegesis." We all do it. With everything. To one degree or another. Typically, with ZERO awareness.



.
Just one of the reasons I like the verse that teaches "test all things, hold fast what is good". It's often interesting to test a theory by trying to support an opposing theory using Scripture. It's usually pretty easy to find Scripture to support the beliefs we already have because, you know, we're reasonable people and therefore anything we believe must be reasonable. If people disagree it's obvious that they aren't reasonable or they would agree with our reasonably held viewpoints. Except from the perspective of the other guy the roles are reversed.

In many ways I really like the notion that until we can articulate our opponent's position so precisely and concisely that they are impressed, we shouldn't be thinking about how to counter it.
 

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MY point is there is possibly a difference between what is objectively THERE and what you "see" (or the" implications" and "logic" and "common sense" etc., etc. that you mention). All those things you stress are the "glasses" you wear, the "prescription" of them, and they are YOURS, and they do impact what you "see." Being aware of the "RX" of YOUR glasses may help you see the "stuff" YOU bring to the issue, a bit of "eisegesis." We all do it. With everything. To one degree or another. Typically, with ZERO awareness.



.
So we see what we want to see and not just what the Spirit hears?
 

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Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
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So we see what we want to see and not just what the Spirit hears?

We "see" through our glasses. See post #2. IMO, the degree to which we are aware of the "prescription" of our "glasses", the more likely we are to "see" what is actually there. Eisegesis is actually VERY common. And not just with the Bible but with everything.




JRT said:
Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe

I agree. And not only cosmology.
 
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