Not by works?

Stephen

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Baptism is God's work in us. It's not something I can do to myself. The language is passive "be baptized" meaning something is happening to us.
That's a good way of putting it.
 

Pedrito

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In Post #16, NathanH83 said: “Seriously though, the yellow blends in with the white background.”

White background?

When CH changed its format/provider, my background became dark blue. And my text colour became an off-white. I thought everyone’s was the same. My apologies.

Assuming that everyone but me has a white background, I will dig around and see if there is a way to make mine white, too. I never really felt comfortable with the new setup.

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But if some people have white, and others have blue, and others have different backgrounds yet again, colour choice for highlighting could become a problem. I’d appreciate some feedback regarding the background colours people have, other than white.

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Pedrito

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I chose something like a ULX option instead of the default blues, and now I can't see any information on the setup page.

I was able to back arrow to this page which was still in the blues format, and so am able to post this request for help.

I fear that once I post this, all my pages will become like the setup page.

Help, someone, please.
 

Pedrito

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More info.

This posting page returned in blues format.

But if I click on "Christian Theology" in the bolded tree near the top of the page, I am transferred to a "blank" page. (But "luckily" I was able to back arrow to this "blues" one.

Clicking on a different active CH tab, presented that existing page a different format with a brilliant white background. Clicking on the Pedrito option took me to what looks like the same "blank" page.

Connecting to yet another active CH tab presented the page in the "blues" format, but clicking on anything landed me on a "blank" page.

Connecting to CH afresh presents the "blues" page. When I log in, I end up on that same "blank" page.

I'm totally stuck. So thanks in advance.
 

Lämmchen

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More info.

This posting page returned in blues format.

But if I click on "Christian Theology" in the bolded tree near the top of the page, I am transferred to a "blank" page. (But "luckily" I was able to back arrow to this "blues" one.

Clicking on a different active CH tab, presented that existing page a different format with a brilliant white background. Clicking on the Pedrito option took me to what looks like the same "blank" page.

Connecting to yet another active CH tab presented the page in the "blues" format, but clicking on anything landed me on a "blank" page.

Connecting to CH afresh presents the "blues" page. When I log in, I end up on that same "blank" page.

I'm totally stuck. So thanks in advance.

You change your "theme" by logging in and selecting one of the ones from the bottom left corner of your browser or by clicking on your username at the top of the browser and clicking on Preferences. The different styles to choose from are at the very top then Save it.
 
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Works can precede faith. Believing is a work - mental work.
This touces on an interesting subject I found - Generally, Protestants and Catholics have a different definition of what faith itself is.

For example, I've seen Lutherans who argued that baptized infants can have faith - I don't know if the Catholic definition of faith being a mental work allows that as well?
 
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Lanman87

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But not by faith alone.
Depends on what kind of faith and what the faith is in.

Are we saved by intellectual faith that is a mental assent that Christ is who He says He is? Nope, even the demons believe that much
Are we saved by making a "profession of faith"? Nope, we profess things all the time that we don't really mean or understand.
Are we saved by faith in our piousness and goodness? Nope, that pretty much makes us pharisees
Are we saved by faith in our doctrinal purity? Nope, Our understandings are limited by human reasoning and human prejudice.
Are we saved by faith in our religion/taking sacraments/reading our bibles/participating in worship services? Nope, that is just replacing the Jewish law and sacrificial system with another law and system in which to earn God's favor by what we do.

I would say that we are saved by a faith (trust and belief) in Christ that comes from a work of the Holy Spirit that transforms our hearts and changes our affections so that we Love God and Love Others. That Love produces works of righteousness and mercy that helps spread the Gospel of Christ, shows the Love of God to the world, and give Glory to God for all He has done. We are saved by that kind of Faith alone. But that kind of faith is so transformative that evidence of God working in our heart shines on those around us.
 

Pedrito

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Thanks, Lämmchen.

I’m finally back to normal, after a continuation of the saga.

My Not By Works tab survived an overnight computer shutdown and subsequent start up. (The blue format remained.)

Having unsuccessfully tried the Preferences option previously (“blank” page – probably white text on white background), I tried the bottom left of screen option you suggested.

That resulted in: “Security error occurred. Please press back, refresh the page, and try again.”

With my heart in my mouth I refreshed the page, expecting the ubiquitous “blank” page (i.e. as effecting all the other CH tabs I’d looked at) to result. But the blue format was retained, and this time the bottom left corner option worked.

Phew!!!

Thanks once again. I can put my tranquilizers back in the cupboard now.


(I’d still like to know what colour style NathanH83 uses, but.)

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Josiah

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Works can precede faith.

Fallen, DEAD people can do good things in the sight of other people but such is not salvic. If it is, then we don't need a Savior and every OTHER religion is right and Christianity is wrong, in that case we'd not need the Savior but just more time and help.


Believing is a work - mental work

Wrong. Faith is the gift of God. Whether GOD works is granting this gift is debatable but that's HIS work, not ours.

See my signature line.




.
 

Pedrito

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Post #18:
...Baptism is God's work.

Post #20:
Baptism is God's work in us. It's not something I can do to myself. The language is passive "be baptized" meaning something is happening to us.

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The Apostle Peter (Acts 2:38):
...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...
Mood = Imperative – a command to be obeyed and actioned by choice.

The Apostle Peter (Acts 10:48):
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
A command to be consciously actioned, once again.

Jesus the Saviour (Mark 16:16):
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It would seem that professed belief has to be followed by a conscious, visible act to confirm it.

James 2:20:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I don’t think I’m prepared to argue with James.

Not yet.

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Lämmchen

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Post #18:
...Baptism is God's work.

Post #20:
Baptism is God's work in us. It's not something I can do to myself. The language is passive "be baptized" meaning something is happening to us.

===================================================================================

The Apostle Peter (Acts 2:38):
...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...
Mood = Imperative – a command to be obeyed and actioned by choice.

The Apostle Peter (Acts 10:48):
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
A command to be consciously actioned, once again.

Jesus the Saviour (Mark 16:16):
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It would seem that professed belief has to be followed by a conscious, visible act to confirm it.

James 2:20:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I don’t think I’m prepared to argue with James.

Not yet.

===================================================================================

Again, "be baptized" means something happens to you.

In the book of James, the speech is toward those who already have faith for salvation and now James is showing that after we receive faith we do works. The works are not for God but because our neighbors need our good works.
 

mailmandan

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Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21,24 - Bible Gateway passage: James 2:21, James 2:24 - New King James Version
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed by the individual is genuine.
 

hedrick

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Justification and faith are words with quite a wide range of meaning. It looks like Paul uses both in ways that have a certain variation. Pistis can be translated both as faith and faithfulness, and I think both translations are needed

The first major treatment of both is with Abraham, who demonstrates his faithfulness by doing what God says. Paul is not contrasting faith with works, in quite the Lutheran sense. Rather, he is contrasting a superficial work such as circumcision (works of the Law) with a faithfulness that shows a real life based on God. In that passage, N T Wright seems correct that justification is really showing that someone is a faithful follower.

But Paul also talks about people being justified in the sense of being set right with God by faith. In this sense justification is active, something God does for us, not just a recognition of status. This is the use that supports the traditional Lutheran understanding. Surely Luther was right that even here, faith isn’t just belief, but something like trust.

But I don’t think Paul would separate these two.uses of faith. Faith puts us right with God. It brings us into Christ, a relationship Calvin talks about as “mystical union.” But the actual relationship is one of faithfulness, and it is faithfulness that is the basis of justification in the sense of what shows that we are Christ’s.
 

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In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed by the individual is genuine.

Point is, faith without works is dead.
 

Lämmchen

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Point is, faith without works is dead.

And if we trust that faith is a gift from God then we know that He also will accomplish the works that need to be done by the Holy Spirit in us.
 

mailmandan

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Depends on what kind of faith and what the faith is in.

Are we saved by intellectual faith that is a mental assent that Christ is who He says He is? Nope, even the demons believe that much
Are we saved by making a "profession of faith"? Nope, we profess things all the time that we don't really mean or understand.
Are we saved by faith in our piousness and goodness? Nope, that pretty much makes us pharisees
Are we saved by faith in our doctrinal purity? Nope, Our understandings are limited by human reasoning and human prejudice.
Are we saved by faith in our religion/taking sacraments/reading our bibles/participating in worship services? Nope, that is just replacing the Jewish law and sacrificial system with another law and system in which to earn God's favor by what we do.

I would say that we are saved by a faith (trust and belief) in Christ that comes from a work of the Holy Spirit that transforms our hearts and changes our affections so that we Love God and Love Others. That Love produces works of righteousness and mercy that helps spread the Gospel of Christ, shows the Love of God to the world, and give Glory to God for all He has done. We are saved by that kind of Faith alone. But that kind of faith is so transformative that evidence of God working in our heart shines on those around us.
Excellent post! We are saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (substantiated, evidenced) by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* :)
 

Hope1960

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The Law is God's Holy Law. So works are anything we do to obtain salvation. We are all saved in the same way, "by grace through faith" and that faith is in Jesus and His act of salvation on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
I’m in the process of trying to learn this very thing, after years of being a Catholic and told to do this, and to do that.
 

Lämmchen

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I’m in the process of trying to learn this very thing, after years of being a Catholic and told to do this, and to do that.

Think of it this way...Jesus said to become like children and when you think about it, children rely on their parent/guardian to save them from everything. That's us. We rely on our triune God to save us.
 

Hope1960

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Think of it this way...Jesus said to become like children and when you think about it, children rely on their parent/guardian to save them from everything. That's us. We rely on our triune God to save us.
True.
 
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