Jesus died for the sins of the world

Doran

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Once again, your proof that you can find NOTHING in Scripture that states your view, that Jesus died ONLY for some few.
Wow! Where in my 938 did I state anything about Jesus dying or who he died for?

However, re 1Jn 2:2, since John very clearly made a distinction between the believing Jews to whom he was writing and the world (Gentiles) then the "whole world" in THAT passage cannot logically be understood in the unlimited sense. He EXCLUDED himself and his Jewish readers from the world with that little three letter word BUT which contrasts "our" and "ours" with the "whole world". John is clearly implying that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for Jewish believers and also for "the whole world" in a limited sense -- because the phrase excludes John and his readers, therefore "the whole world" can only be understood as referring to Gentiles in a qualitative sense. 1Jn 2:2 is not saying that Jesus atoned for the sins of each and every person in world. That is your personal presupposition that you bring to the passage. You're conveniently ignoring the distinction that John made in that passage between "our" "ours" and "the whole world".
 

Josiah

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Wow! Where in my 938 did I state anything about Jesus dying or who he died for?

EXACTLY!

All we get from you are diversions, evasions, hijacks and red herrings. A LOT of stuff proving you have NOTHING to support that Jesus died for ONLY some FEW. And revealing a very, very clear passion that God here is obviously and very persistently misleading and never does get it right in Scripture. And your severe doubt in God (the "God cannot" points of yours).

When you get past all the irrelevant rabbit holes and doubts and conviction that God can be very persistent and constant in misleading people, then just state your verses that support your view: Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few. Just going on and on and on and on with stuff to show how you can't believe God can do and mean what He so often, verbatim states (but MEANS the exact opposite or at least something VERY different from what He clearly STATES)... if you can get past that, share the Scriptures that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. Until then, we're wasting our time with you. I really don't want to hear more of your doubts about God, your insistence that God is SO passionate about misleading and never does get it right. You may THINK that YOUR brain (what you call "inference") just trumps God and Christianity but few here are going to buy that.



However, re 1Jn 2:2, since John very clearly made a distinction between the believing Jews to whom he was writing and the world (Gentiles) then the "whole world" in THAT passage cannot logically be understood in the unlimited sense. He EXCLUDED himself and his Jewish readers from the world with that little three letter word BUT which contrasts "our" and "ours" with the "whole world". John is clearly implying that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for Jewish believers and also for "the whole world" in a limited sense -- because the phrase excludes John and his readers, therefore "the whole world" can only be understood as referring to Gentiles in a qualitative sense. 1Jn 2:2 is not saying that Jesus atoned for the sins of each and every person in world. That is your personal presupposition that you bring to the passage. You're conveniently ignoring the distinction that John made in that passage between "our" "ours" and "the whole world".

All these have been addressed MANY times.

EVEN if you proved that God doesn't mean what He states and never states what He means.... even if you proved that God CANNOT do what Scripture says, sorry, but that does NOTHING to support your position.

You have indicated that you've ended the discussion. You'll "pass" on anything we say. Actually, I think you ended the discussion before it began. Too bad, I THOUGHT you were of a different spirit than Dave, but....



.
 

Doran

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Not one of the Scriptures you quote shares your view that Jesus died ONLY for some FEW.
Not one of them remotely states all those Scriptures that specifically and verbatim state that Jesus died for all are wrong.

See post 428.



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I read it and it was a very WEAK post. You're going to quibble about whether Jesus said "the sheep" or "my sheep"? But what about Jn 10:2 where Jesus said "his sheep:". And what about v. 4 when Jesus said "all his own". Or v. 3 when He said "his own sheep"? And just for the record, the NIV, which I mostly use, but by no means exclusively, rendered v. 11 "for the sheep"? SO WHAT! What else does the larger context passage say!? How about v. 14...."I know MY sheep and MY sheep know me"?

So, since we're on this passage Jesus also said in v. 14 about those sheep that he laid down his life for: "I know my sheep..."

So, my question to you is: Did Jesus also lay down his life for people he never knew?

You guys are so heavily invested in your unlimited atonement heresy that I believe that you just skim read scripture. I think at the very best your understanding of the gospel is superficial because I don't think you guys know how to exegete scripture. You do seem to be well acquainted, however, with the eisegetical method whereby you read your presuppositions into scripture -- which in essence is adding to God's word -- something that is forbidden in scripture.
 

Josiah

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Let's look at just a few of the Scriptures we've offered:


"So that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.' Hebrews 2:9

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "that he might taste death for just a few."



"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:14

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "NOT for all but ONLY for some few."


"He died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:15

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few."


"Who gave himself as a ransom for all." 1 Timothy 2:6

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "Who gave himself as a ransom NOT for all but just for some few (God being incapable of dying for all).

"Christ died for the ungodly." Romans 5:6

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "Christ did NOT die for the ungodly because Christ was incapable of that."


Now, if you present Scriptures that state that Jesus died only for some few and not for all, we can discuss those. Still waiting. But we need more than proclamations of your superior brain and doubts as to what God can and cannot do.




 

Doran

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EXACTLY!

All we get from you are diversions, evasions, hijacks and red herrings. A LOT of stuff proving you have NOTHING to support that Jesus died for ONLY some FEW. And revealing a very, very clear passion that God here is obviously and very persistently misleading and never does get it right in Scripture. And your severe doubt in God (the "God cannot" points of yours).

When you get past all the irrelevant rabbit holes and doubts and conviction that God can be very persistent and constant in misleading people, then just state your verses that support your view: Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few. Just going on and on and on and on with stuff to show how you can't believe God can do and mean what He so often, verbatim states (but MEANS the exact opposite or at least something VERY different from what He clearly STATES)... if you can get past that, share the Scriptures that state Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. Until then, we're wasting our time with you. I really don't want to hear more of your doubts about God, your insistence that God is SO passionate about misleading and never does get it right. You may THINK that YOUR brain (what you call "inference") just trumps God and Christianity but few here are going to buy that.





All these have been addressed MANY times.

EVEN if you proved that God doesn't mean what He states and never states what He means.... even if you proved that God CANNOT do what Scripture says, sorry, but that does NOTHING to support your position.

You have indicated that you've ended the discussion. You'll "pass" on anything we say. Actually, I think you ended the discussion before it began. Too bad, I THOUGHT you were of a different spirit than Dave, but....



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Thanks for exegeting 1 Jn 2:2 with such passion. :rolleyes: You have so much zeal...sadly without knowledge (Rom 10:2).

Maybe someone someday might teach you about the importance of paying attention to conjunctions, prepositions, etc. in a passage such as that little three-letter word BUT. You very clearly cannot exegete the passage because you can't figure out a way to get those two personal pronouns "our" and "ours" incorporated into "the whole world".

So, tell me...do you still think that such phrases as "all men", "the world", "the whole world", etc. always mean each and every person?

And what is the number of your post to which you allege you replied to my question re Rev 7:9?
 

Doran

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Let's look at just a few of the Scriptures we've offered:


"So that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.' Hebrews 2:9

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "that he might taste death for just a few."



"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:14

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "NOT for all but ONLY for some few."


"He died for all." 2 Corinthians 5:15

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "He did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few."


"Who gave himself as a ransom for all." 1 Timothy 2:6

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "Who gave himself as a ransom NOT for all but just for some few (God being incapable of dying for all).

"Christ died for the ungodly." Romans 5:6

Now, let's say you can PROVE that God is being very, very misleading here (indeed, it seems all Christians were mislead by this for over 1500 years - Church Fathers, a Church Council, Luther, Calvin....). God really misspoke here, as He did in EVERY ONE of His statements on this topic.

How does that prove that it SHOULD read, "Christ did NOT die for the ungodly because Christ was incapable of that."


Now, if you present Scriptures that state that Jesus died only for some few and not for all, we can discuss those. Still waiting. But we need more than proclamations of your superior brain and doubts as to what God can and cannot do.
No, let's not and say we did. I don't play shotgun game whereby a person let's loose often with a barrage of verses, thinking that the sheer number of verses irrefutably proves his position because he's peppered the side of the barn so often with them. That's something a child might do but not a serious expositor or exegete of scripture. Besides, I plan to dig into Hebrews 2 soon. Also, it's not a question of God misleading anyone. That's not the problem. The problem is that you do NOT know how to exegete scripture. And I'll prove that when I tear into one of your favorite pet verses that you THINK supports unlimited atonement.

But just for fun ---to crawl into your skin and your bosom buddy's, let me pull one of your favorite stunts -- but the megabytes of irony here is that I can do this legitimately. First, when did "tasting death" mean that Jesus died? Now...you might think that a strange question but do you recall your objection when I brought up the Last Supper wherein Jesus said he gave his life as a ransom for MANY (Mk 10:45), or that he poured out his blood for MANY, that you asked where does it say that Jesus died for only just a few unknown? Or something very similar along those lines. In other words because those passage didn't contain your favorite words, you questioned whether Jesus death was in view. :rolleyes: I mean you guys are the one with the wooly problem here. You think Jesus died for all in the quantitative sense while at the same time you think he poured out his blood for only a fraction of the whole world -- in fact, DARE I say...for a very few unknown people? You still haven't resolved the many and all conundrum. How does Many = All?

But now for the serious objection -- without even deeply analyzing the Hebrews 2 passage -- ready? Where in the passage does it state that Jesus tasted death for each and every person in the world? Yes, the text says he "tasted death for everyone" but it doesn't say everyone in the world, does it? Aren't you kinda reading that into the passage!? Since that is not be found in the passage, then this leaves the door wide ajar to possibly understand "everyone" in a restricted sense. And here's a wild and crazy guess: I bet the larger CONTEXT of Hebrews 2 would favor a restricted understanding of "everyone". Just sayin'... :coffee:
 

Josiah

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Doran,

You don't have to prove that what these Scriptures state cannot be true. Just state the Scriptures that prove that your position is true: That Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few.


Now...

Don't tell us what YOU THINK God cannot do....
Don't tell us how Jews would understand the New Testament...
Don't tell us about faith (or sheep or goats - those with it or those without it)
Don't put words in God's mouth (such as NOT or ONLY or FEW)
Don't tell us about your amazing superior brain, infallible logic and brilliant "inferences"

Just give your Scriptures that show that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. Then we can talk. IF you resend your statement to "give a pass" to what others say.

Don't waste our time with questions (they substantiate nothing) or with all the things you insist God cannot do. Just give the Scriptures that support your view. Then we can compare.



Doran said:
You think Jesus died for all in the quantitative sense while at the same time you think he poured out his blood for only a fraction of the whole world

This is the sort of silliness that happens when you "give a pass" to what others post; when you admit you don't actually READ what is posted to you.

This added to the many, many things you thrown in that no one said, all the diversions and evasions, all the rabbit holes., all the things that AREN'T the issue; all your disapproval of Scriptures we never gave. Just give the Scriptures that state your view: That Jesus died ONLY for some FEW. Without the "only" your position is absent. Give your Scripture. Just copy/paste the words of the verse (easy). We'll again post ours, verbatim. Then we can look at the two sets of Scripture. It's good to start with Scripture. You have yet to give even one for your position (and we are on page 48, how patient must we be? Or are we wasting our time because you don't have anything to put forth?



.
 

Doran

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I seem to remember that one of your favorite "proof texts" for unlimited atonement (which, incidentally, I hold wholeheartedly to in the qualitative sense) :) is 1 Tim 2:6, right? I can't resist such low hanging fruit. ;)

Question re 2:1 which reads:

1 Tim 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
ESV

So, was Paul telling Timothy to pray for each and every person in the world? Do you? Does anyone here? How are we supposed to understand the phrase "for all people"?

Secondly, are going to reconcile the contradiction in v. 5 re the phrase "who gave himself as a ransom for ALL" with Mat 26:28 which says that Jesus' blood was poured out for MANY, and with Mk 10:45 which says He "gave his life as a ransom for MANY, and with Lk 22:20 which says "which is poured out for YOU, and with Isa 53:12 which says "he bore the sin of MANY, and with Heb 9:28 which reads that Christ "sacrificed himself to take away the sins of MANY?

If you tell me that Many = All, then I'll have to post the definitions of "many" and "all" like I might have to with a small child. I'm trying to spare you of that kind of humiliation.

P.S. Just to let you know: I can RECONCILE the serious conflict between the Many and All right within the context of chapter 2. But can you?
 

Josiah

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Doran,

You don't have to prove that what these Scriptures state cannot be true. Just state the Scriptures that prove that your position is true: That Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few.


Now...

Don't tell us what YOU THINK God cannot do....
Don't tell us how Jews understand the New Testament...
Don't tell us about faith (or sheep or goats - those with it or those without it)
Don't put words in God's mouth (such as NOT or ONLY or FEW)
Don't tell us about how God never got it right on this topic.
Don't tell us about your amazing superior brain, infallible logic and brilliant "inferences"

Just give your Scriptures that show that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. Then we can talk. IF you resend your statement to "give a pass" to what others say (until then, you are not discussing... this is a discussion forum, not a private blog)

Don't waste our time with questions (they substantiate nothing) or with all the things you insist God cannot do. Don't waste our time chasing your rabbits. Just give the Scriptures that support your view. Then we can compare.




.
 
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Albion

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Question re 2:1 which reads:

1 Tim 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
ESV

So, was Paul telling Timothy to pray for each and every person in the world? Do you? Does anyone here?
Yes, indeed, and I can think of many examples of that happening.
 

Doran

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Doran,

You don't have to prove that what these Scriptures state cannot be true. Just state the Scriptures that prove that your position is true: That Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few.


Now...

Don't tell us what YOU THINK God cannot do....
Don't tell us how Jews would understand the New Testament...
Don't tell us about faith (or sheep or goats - those with it or those without it)
Don't put words in God's mouth (such as NOT or ONLY or FEW)
Don't tell us about your amazing superior brain, infallible logic and brilliant "inferences"

Just give your Scriptures that show that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. Then we can talk. IF you resend your statement to "give a pass" to what others say.

Don't waste our time with questions (they substantiate nothing) or with all the things you insist God cannot do. Just give the Scriptures that support your view. Then we can compare.





This is the sort of silliness that happens when you "give a pass" to what others post; when you admit you don't actually READ what is posted to you.

This added to the many, many things you thrown in that no one said, all the diversions and evasions, all the rabbit holes., all the things that AREN'T the issue; all your disapproval of Scriptures we never gave. Just give the Scriptures that state your view: That Jesus died ONLY for some FEW. Without the "only" your position is absent. Give your Scripture. Just copy/paste the words of the verse (easy). We'll again post ours, verbatim. Then we can look at the two sets of Scripture. It's good to start with Scripture. You have yet to give even one for your position (and we are on page 48, how patient must we be? Or are we wasting our time because you don't have anything to put forth?



Josiah, take a deep breath. If I prove that YOUR position is false, the antithetical proposition (unlimited atonement) would by default be proven to be true! A law of logic known as the Excluded Middle applies here! There is no third option to the question to the atonement question unless you really want to jump off the cliff and posit that Christ died for no one. :rolleyes: So, assuming you wouldn't want to do that (even though I don't like to assume anything), then either Christ died for everyone under the sun or he died for many under the sun.
Josiah, take a deep breath. If I prove that YOUR position is false, the antithetical proposition (unlimited atonement) would by default be proven to be true! A law of logic known as the Excluded Middle applies here! There is no third option to the question to the atonement question unless you really want to jump off the cliff and posit that Christ died for no one. :rolleyes: So, assuming you wouldn't want to do that (even though I don't like to assume anything), then either Christ died for everyone under the sun or he died for many under the sun.

And I have not gone down any rabbit trails. You and your cohort accused me early on making up my own definitions of words and so on. You guys seem to think that everyone should understand universal sounding terms or phrases in the quantitative sense. How utterly naive is that!? Every issue I have raised is directly connected to Christ's death on the Cross.

I have asked repeatedly, for example, for you and sidekick to tell me who you guys think the elect are? And how did they attain to that status? That is a question very directly related to the atonement since for those of us who hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace, we believe the Father sent the Son in the world to die for all the Father has given to Him, i.e. the elect. Why in the world would Jesus die for anyone else!? If Jesus died for others that the Father has NOT WILLED to give to the Son, then Jesus would be rebelling against his Father's will! And where would that leave any of us!?
 

Josiah

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Josiah, take a deep breath. If I prove that YOUR position is false, the antithetical proposition (unlimited atonement) would by default be proven to be true!

@Doran (not that you'll read this)


No. Obviously not.

If you prove that Scripture nowhere proves that Jesus is God, then you have not proven ergo He is not. Much less that He must be a Martian or ghost. There IS at least (at least!) one "third position" (as you put it): Scripture doesn't expressly say. And of course there are others, too. For example, the point you've suggested - that He died for no one (actually, you've unintentionally made your best case for that option). Others: He died for men but not women. He died for Catholics but not Protestants. He died for people then but now those alive now. But your position is: Jesus died ONLY for the Elect, ONLY for "the sheep" Disproving that He died for all does not prove ergo He died for the Elect (it just makes that less likely). Insisting it's not "all" does not prove "just a few."


But here's your problem: We have presented a GREAT MANY Scriptures that expressly, flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white STATE the ancient, ecumenical, foundational Christian belief. And you have presented NOTHING that states your position. Lots of Scriptures that STATE Jesus died for all, for everyone. Not one that states your position, that He did ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some FEW. That's the reality. And we all know why you and Dave have not presented a single Scripture to support your view (not without ADDED your point, ADDED the words "NOT" or "ONLY" or "FEW" - not without ADDED your point. We don't have to add "all" or "everyone."

And of course, our position is the universal, historic, ancient faith of Christians. Historically, Christians have not disbelieved all these Scriptures we've offered on this, they have not insisted "God CANNOT do that!" They have upheld this glorious Gospel, SO often and SO clearly proclaimed in Holy Scripture. Not until after the death of Calvin did a FEW very radical anti-Calvin theorist come up with this idea - NOT because of ANY Scripture that states their view but because it seemed to them to be a "logical consequence" of their (wrong) idea about double-predestination and frankly some pretty much discounting the role of faith.

We have the Words of Scripture and the Witness of the Faith entirely on our side. You have your claims that God CANNOT do things He says He does.... claims of your brilliant mind, infallible logic, superior intelligence and that we should begin with that rather than what the Bible states.

You will insist that the Bible states that Jesus died ONLY for the Elect, ONLY for "the sheep" but you have not one Scripture that says that, as you've proven. And on a practical level, that just means no one knows who (since the sheep and Elect don't have a red dot on their foreheads and their names are not listed in the Bible). You'll insist, "we know because it was only for the Elect that Christ died so God only gives them faith" - pretty bad circular reasoning. You might insist (based on this circular reasoning) that IF a person has faith, Jesus died for them but what about BEFORE they have faith? You can't know - even with your logical fallacy. Before faith, you cannot know. So pastors, teachers, missionaries are telling THEM the Gospel but MUST say, "But this very likely is not for you, odds are God doesn't love you, odds are God won't forgive YOU, odds are pretty good He wants to be gloried by seeing you fry eternally in hell (which is why He gave you life). This FEW that is the point of your dogma is an unknowable few. It's not only NOT "all" or "everyone" ... it's NOT 'many".... it's some unknowable FEW.



A poster here noted that there is better biblical support for Jesus dying for all than there is for the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity - and perhaps he has a point.


either Christ died for everyone under the sun or he died for many under the sun.

Nice try. But your position isn't that He died for many. You reject THAT word, too (as you do pretty much everything God said on this point). The "L" is that He died for ONLY SOME FEW. I've read some anti-Calvin folks say 25% of people, some 10%, most that we can't know, but certainly a small minority, often quoting Jesus' point about a narrow door. So, just ONE of the things you must prove is that "MANY" must mean not many but just a few. Just as "all" must mean "just a few." Just as "everyone" must mean "hardly anyone."



I have asked repeatedly, for example, for you and sidekick to tell me who you guys think the elect are?

I just won't go down all your endless rabbit holes. The issue here is not about the Elect. It's about this: Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all BUT RATHER ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some FEW.



That is a question very directly related to the atonement since for those of us who hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace, we believe the Father sent the Son in the world to die for all the Father has given to Him, i.e. the elect.

Of course, you've offered NOTHING to show that's true. It just seems to be part of your confusion about the Cross and Faith. Scripture is tossed aside because if we accept what Scripture SO often verbatim states, what Christians have always believed, what the Church Council declared, what John Calvin taught - then God would be FORCED to give faith to everyone He died for. Absurd. Scripture never remotely says any such thing. And then you have to reject all those Scriptures about God loving all. And ultimately, even question of faith has anything to do with anything. EVEN ANTI-CALVIN radicals eventually admit their position is found nowhere in Scripture, it's required to make TULIP logical to them. It's a "logical inferance" of the rest of their TULIP'ian theology. Their brain trumps God's Word and the ancient faith of God's people.





Why in the world would Jesus die for anyone else!? If Jesus died for others that the Father has NOT WILLED to give to the Son, then Jesus would be rebelling against his Father's will! And where would that leave any of us!?

Questions substantiate nothing.

Questions you ask are not Scriptures stating your position.

Read post 428.

State your Scriptures that state your position. And if you can't, we're done.



.



 
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brightfame52

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Its no secret that mans religion appeals to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The religionist sees the word world here and automatically and carelessly assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !


The word particulars is defined:

of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to othersor all; special rather than general:

Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"

Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !

Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars !
 

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Yes, indeed, and I can think of many examples of that happening.
Really? Run those examples buy us. You're going to have us believe that people actually pray for each and every person in the world according to each their needs?

All of us, without exception, pray for specific people by name for their specific needs. We also pray for people we minister to or who are ministered to by our churches, other Christians, or outside organizations we support. We also pray for missionaries and their works that we support. But NONE us prays for each and every person in the world according to their needs. Even when we pray for a great revival, say right here in America, we pray that GOD would do a great work and pour on his Spirit upon many. But such a prayer doesn't include specific people by name.

In fact, later on I'll prove to from scripture that the phrase "pray for all men" was qualified in the context of the passage. CONTEXT...something you're not very fond of, apparently.
 

Josiah

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later on I'll prove to from scripture that the phrase "pray for all men" was qualified in the context of the passage.

No need.

Just copy/paste to here the Scriptures that state "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY (there's the absolutely essential word) for some FEW'" (if your verse identifies which FEW - men, Catholics, Americans, blondes, First Century persons - we'll see that in the quotes). Without the ONLY then your whole point of ONLY isn't there, your entire apologetic is missing.


See post 952.



.


 

Josiah

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Its no secret that mans religion appeals to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The religionist sees the word world here and automatically and carelessly assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !


The word particulars is defined:

of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to othersor all; special rather than general:

Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"

Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !

Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars !


Thanks for your creative spin on these 3 Scriptures. But of course NONE of them remotely states what you do. Not even if we accept your very creative spin on them.. Even then, nope, your new Anti-Calvin invention is completely missing.

See post 952





.
 
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Doran

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@Doran (not that you'll read this)


No. Obviously not.

If you prove that Scripture nowhere proves that Jesus is God, then you have not proven ergo He is not. Much less that He must be a Martian or ghost. There IS at least (at least!) one "third position" (as you put it): Scripture doesn't expressly say. And of course there are others, too. For example, the point you've suggested - that He died for no one (actually, you've unintentionally made your best case for that option). Others: He died for men but not women. He died for Catholics but not Protestants. He died for people then but now those alive now. But your position is: Jesus died ONLY for the Elect, ONLY for "the sheep" Disproving that He died for all does not prove ergo He died for the Elect (it just makes that less likely). Insisting it's not "all" does not prove "just a few."


But here's your problem: We have presented a GREAT MANY Scriptures that expressly, flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white STATE the ancient, ecumenical, foundational Christian belief. And you have presented NOTHING that states your position. Lots of Scriptures that STATE Jesus died for all, for everyone. Not one that states your position, that He did ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some FEW. That's the reality. And we all know why you and Dave have not presented a single Scripture to support your view (not without ADDED your point, ADDED the words "NOT" or "ONLY" or "FEW" - not without ADDED your point. We don't have to add "all" or "everyone."

And of course, our position is the universal, historic, ancient faith of Christians. Historically, Christians have not disbelieved all these Scriptures we've offered on this, they have not insisted "God CANNOT do that!" They have upheld this glorious Gospel, SO often and SO clearly proclaimed in Holy Scripture. Not until after the death of Calvin did a FEW very radical anti-Calvin theorist come up with this idea - NOT because of ANY Scripture that states their view but because it seemed to them to be a "logical consequence" of their (wrong) idea about double-predestination and frankly some pretty much discounting the role of faith.

We have the Words of Scripture and the Witness of the Faith entirely on our side. You have your claims that God CANNOT do things He says He does.... claims of your brilliant mind, infallible logic, superior intelligence and that we should begin with that rather than what the Bible states.

You will insist that the Bible states that Jesus died ONLY for the Elect, ONLY for "the sheep" but you have not one Scripture that says that, as you've proven. And on a practical level, that just means no one knows who (since the sheep and Elect don't have a red dot on their foreheads and their names are not listed in the Bible). You'll insist, "we know because it was only for the Elect that Christ died so God only gives them faith" - pretty bad circular reasoning. You might insist (based on this circular reasoning) that IF a person has faith, Jesus died for them but what about BEFORE they have faith? You can't know - even with your logical fallacy. Before faith, you cannot know. So pastors, teachers, missionaries are telling THEM the Gospel but MUST say, "But this very likely is not for you, odds are God doesn't love you, odds are God won't forgive YOU, odds are pretty good He wants to be gloried by seeing you fry eternally in hell (which is why He gave you life). This FEW that is the point of your dogma is an unknowable few. It's not only NOT "all" or "everyone" ... it's NOT 'many".... it's some unknowable FEW.



A poster here noted that there is better biblical support for Jesus dying for all than there is for the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity - and perhaps he has a point.




Nice try. But your position isn't that He died for many. You reject THAT word, too (as you do pretty much everything God said on this point). The "L" is that He died for ONLY SOME FEW. I've read some anti-Calvin folks say 25% of people, some 10%, most that we can't know, but certainly a small minority, often quoting Jesus' point about a narrow door. So, just ONE of the things you must prove is that "MANY" must mean not many but just a few. Just as "all" must mean "just a few." Just as "everyone" must mean "hardly anyone."





I just won't go down all your endless rabbit holes. The issue here is not about the Elect. It's about this: Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all BUT RATHER ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some FEW.





Of course, you've offered NOTHING to show that's true. It just seems to be part of your confusion about the Cross and Faith. Scripture is tossed aside because if we accept what Scripture SO often verbatim states, what Christians have always believed, what the Church Council declared, what John Calvin taught - then God would be FORCED to give faith to everyone He died for. Absurd. Scripture never remotely says any such thing. And then you have to reject all those Scriptures about God loving all. And ultimately, even question of faith has anything to do with anything. EVEN ANTI-CALVIN radicals eventually admit their position is found nowhere in Scripture, it's required to make TULIP logical to them. It's a "logical inferance" of the rest of their TULIP'ian theology. Their brain trumps God's Word and the ancient faith of God's people.







Questions substantiate nothing.

Questions you ask are not Scriptures stating your position.

Read post 428.

State your Scriptures that state your position. And if you can't, we're done.



.
In other words, you have NO answers to legitimate theological questions to support your limited atonement falsehood. Your insipid theory cannot withstand the rigors of sound exegetical or close theological scrutiny. This, sir, proves the intellectual bankruptcy to your position and, even more importantly, the total lack of biblical support.

Oh...one more thing before you wave good-bye to me -- 😥I gotta tell ya this: Just like Heb 2:9 does NOT say that Christ tasted death for everyone in the world, likewise Jn 3:16 does not teach God so loved everyone in the world. Those who believe in unlimited atonement or believe that God's love is unconditional in nature read such things into the text in order to try to substantiate their position. However, adding words to scripture (explicitly or implicitly) is expressly forbidden in scripture (Deut 4:2; 12:32; Prov 30:6; Rev 22:18-19). You might want to take these injunctions to heart.

P.S. But before we part company, won't you please provide the post number wherein you allege that you answered my inquries re Rev 7:9? I'm always up for a good belly laugh. :coffee: ;)

P.P.S. Prove that I believe that Christ didn't die for many. I certainly believe Rev 7:9. But you, evidently, don't because you constantly the phrase "for an unknown few"? How do you get that from Rev 7:9?
 

Albion

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So, was Paul telling Timothy to pray for each and every person in the world? Do you? Does anyone here?

Really? Run those examples buy us.

"O God, Almighty and merciful, who healest those that are broken in heart, and turnest the sadness of the sorrowful to joy; Let thy fatherly goodness be upon all that thou hast made."

(straight from the Church's official prayer book!)
 

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No need.

Just copy/paste to here the Scriptures that state "Jesus did not die for all but ONLY (there's the absolutely essential word) for some FEW'" (if your verse identifies which FEW - men, Catholics, Americans, blondes, First Century persons - we'll see that in the quotes). Without the ONLY then your whole point of ONLY isn't there, your entire apologetic is missing.


See post 952.



.
Thanks for tacitly admitting that you really don't want to understand what any one particular passage is teaching, even though you use it as a proof text. (n)

P.S. Christ died for all the Father has given to Him in eternity. (Oh yeah...that would include the OT saints, as well.) And just who has the Father given to Christ? Again, see Rev 5:9. If you think Christ died for others that His Father in eternity did not will to give him, then please provide a proof text. But if you do believe that Jesus died ONLY for those given to him by his Father...AND you still believe that Christ died for each and every person in the world, then you must believe in universal salvation! Why? Because Jesus said ALL that the Father gives Him...will come to Him! He didn't say, maybe, perhaps, possibly, potentially or use any other qualifier. ALL will come. Yes...all in the quantitative sense. Every single one of them. Kool, huh? :cool:
 

Doran

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"O God, Almighty and merciful, who healest those that are broken in heart, and turnest the sadness of the sorrowful to joy; Let thy fatherly goodness be upon all that thou hast made."

(straight from the Church's official prayer book!)
Two things: Can you find any prayer in scripture that closely resembles this "universal" prayer for all?

Secondly, it's a nice sounding, touchy feely, warm 'n' fuzzy prayer that doesn't say very much, for God's "goodness" has always been upon His creation (Mat 5:45). This particular goodness of God is usually understood as being his common grace upon all (not to be confused with saving grace) which God bestows upon the earth to sustain life upon this little green planet. This is really a nothing burger prayer.

Now...contrast that milquetoast prayer with this one:

John 17:1-9
17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people
that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

See how specific Christ's prayer is?

By the way, why didn't Christ pray for each and every person in the world (i.e. the word) since he supposedly died for each and every person in the world? Pretty cold-hearted of Jesus, wouldn't you say? Not to mention pretty narrow-minded and selfish of him to pray only for the elect, right? :coffee:
 
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