Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Lämmchen

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But does faith & baptism cos justification or faith alone?

God causes justification and He uses means for us to have faith in order to believe and have eternal life with Him. He uses His Word for us to hear the Gospel and He uses baptism to receive that Gospel through the water.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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God causes justification and He uses means for us to have faith in order to believe and have eternal life with Him. He uses His Word for us to hear the Gospel and He uses baptism to receive that Gospel through the water.
Not scripture
In baptism we died with christ
 

Lämmchen

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In baptism we died with christ

Among other things that God causes to happen in our baptisms. Do you deny or reject that God baptizes you and it's not your own doing?
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Among other things that God causes to happen in our baptisms. Do you deny or reject that God baptizes you and it's not your own doing?
Of course ez 36:25/27
But faith alone accomplishes nothing
 

Lämmchen

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Faith and baptism aren't really separate. Baptism gives faith.
Both you must profess the faith and the sacrament of baptism include faith hope and charity acts 8:36-38
 

Lämmchen

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Both you must profess the faith and the sacrament of baptism include faith hope and charity acts 8:36-38

Again, baptism gives us faith and it's done by God to us. We don't work for salvation since we can't be our own Saviors.
 

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Again, baptism gives us faith and it's done by God to us. We don't work for salvation since we can't be our own Saviors.
Yes grace is a free gift but once we have grace in baptism and are members of Christ our faith & works become meritorious and there are 7 sacraments that give grace
 

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Yes grace is a free gift but once we have grace in baptism and are members of Christ our faith & works become meritorious and there are 7 sacraments that give grace

If it's by grace then it's not our doing so obedience is not a condition.
 

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If it's by grace then it's not our doing so obedience is not a condition.
Grace is what enables us to be and act righteously to become holy and righteous
 

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Grace is what enables us to be and act righteously to become holy and righteous

Not by our doing things. We are clothed in Jesus at our baptisms. Baptism brings the cross to us personally.
 

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Not by our doing things. We are clothed in Jesus at our baptisms. Baptism brings the cross to us personally.
Explain
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace issufficient for thee: for my strength ismade perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
 

Josiah

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Grace is what enables us to be and act righteously to become holy and righteous


Words mean things....

ONCE AGAIN, you are addressing discipleship (Sanctification in the narrow sense) whereas we're speaking of justification (narrow sense). YES, the word "grace" as two different meanings, depending on the context. It usually means "free gift" or "blessing" or "favor" - something actively given and passively received. That's in the context of JUSTIFICATION (or "born again" as Evangelicals call it, or "initial grace" as some Catholics since Vatican II call it). In SANCTIFICATION, the word means "divine empowerment". Grace can be monergistic (Justification) or it can be synergistic (Sanctification).


Where we disagree....

You will find that Protestants fundamentally disagree with you that Jesus is not the Savior because Jesus doesn't actually save anyone. We disagree. It is NOT a case of "God helps those who help themselves" or "Jesus made salvation POSSIBLE for everyone, but each has to actually achieve it themselves" or "Jesus opened the door to heaven but each has to walk through it - empowered by God." Protestants hold that Jesus is the Savior (NOT just Helper or Door Opener or Offerer) and that Jesus is the Savior because Jesus saves. You aren't going to convince us that we're wrong.

Now ONCE justified, ONCE we have been given Spiritual Life (".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of Life"), given faith ("... the free gift of God"), and the Holy Spirit.... "born again".... THEN we enter a syergistic, life-long, never-finished PROCESS of becoming more Christ-like, more moral, more loving, more serving, growing up in Christ, all empowered by God's grace. In SANCTIFICATION, we largely agree with Catholicism (as it noted in the Reformation), this is NOT where we disagree. We disagree in JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense), the COMING of life, faith and the Holy Spirit, the BECOMING a Child of God (who then grows up) - there we hold that Jesus saves, not self. That the Holy Spirit gives to us, not that the dead unregerate enemy of God gives self life, faith and salvation (making Jesus NOT the Savior but self). We hold that Jesus is the Savior - not just Offerer or Helper or Inspiration or Teacher or Possibility-Maker ... not even PART Savior (the part that that actually doesn't save anyone) and each of us is Part Savior (the part that's actually effectual). That was the disagreement in the Reformation and it's STILL the disagreement. You are NOT going to convince any Protestant that self saves self - even 1%. You're wasting your time.



A blessed Advent season to you and yours.



- Josiah




.
 

Lämmchen

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Explain
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace issufficient for thee: for my strength ismade perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

That verse backs up what I've been saying...not what you've been saying.
 

Lämmchen

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How?
Grace enables our faith and works to be meritorious

Because salvation is done by the Savior, not us.

Grace gives us faith to believe so we can have eternal life. For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son that whosever believeth in Him shall have eternal life.

Works show that we have faith but they do not bring salvation to us. That's the Savior's job.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Because salvation is done by the Savior, not us.

Grace gives us faith to believe so we can have eternal life. For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son that whosever believeth in Him shall have eternal life.

Works show that we have faith but they do not bring salvation to us. That's the Savior's job.
Explain


Christian suffering!

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 2:23 .....I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I especially want to hear you’re explaining of Heb 12:4? Can’t wait
 

Lämmchen

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Explain


Christian suffering!

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 2:23 .....I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I especially want to hear you’re explaining of Heb 12:4? Can’t wait

No, we don't have to suffer in order to bear fruit every time. There are Christians who will suffer because of Jesus and their faith in Him. Don't take verses out of context and think that you have to be in pain in order to bear fruit. The Holy Spirit has works in mind for you to do and they will be done and some times you aren't even aware you're doing them.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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No, we don't have to suffer in order to bear fruit every time. There are Christians who will suffer because of Jesus and their faith in Him. Don't take verses out of context and think that you have to be in pain in order to bear fruit. The Holy Spirit has works in mind for you to do and they will be done and some times you aren't even aware you're doing them.
I did not say suffering happens to Christians but that Christians are CALLED to suffer!
Phil 1:29 and not faith alone
 

Lämmchen

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I did not say suffering happens to Christians but that Christians are CALLED to suffer!
Phil 1:29 and not faith alone

CONTEXT MATTERS! I know you said in another thread that you said "Context is a tool to deny the faith and negate the word of God" and that is your problem that you miss out what has been said by plucking a verse out of the context to try to fit into your own narrative. Read the entire chapter and you'll see to whom that statement was written to and that it wasn't applied to all Christians everywhere throughout time.
 
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