Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[tango]

Not if my moral compass tells me that it's wrong and this moral compass was acquired after I started seeking God. When I was living in sin and didn't care about religion, I didn't even think about the morality of eating meat. But now that I've started seeking God, it seems to me like it's completely wrong and absurd. And I'm supposed to shrug it off and go, "oh, well, the Bible says it's right, and people say that the Bible is the word of God, so I better listen to those people"? I don't want to do that.

So you're saying "I'm seeking God, so what I feel is right and wrong must be universally right and wrong"?

If it seems to you that it's wrong to eat meat then don't eat meat. It's not that hard. If you want to tell others that they shouldn't eat meat you need something a lot more solid than "it feels wrong to me".

The Bible doesn't say you have to eat meat, merely that you may eat meat. If you don't want to eat meat nobody is forcing you. People get lost between mandates and prohibitions and lose sight of the fact that many things are optional. There's nothing wrong with eating lima beans, I just choose not to because I don't like the taste of them. There's nothing wrong with eating cow but you may choose not to because you're concerned about humane farming or simply prefer not to eat animals.

Yeah, when discussions derail, it's pretty difficult to keep up with all these subforums. I didn't make the thread in this subforum. The mods are able to move it to the appropriate place.

Things derail but even so asking questions that ultimately boil down to "I think the Bible says the wrong thing" is of limited value in a Christian Theology section.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Owning a car doesn't cause pain to another creature. Driving it might, but that's another topic altogether.

Research has shown that plants don't experience pain and can regenerate. Fruits that are picked from trees have no nervous system to experience pain. Neither do potatoes.

I'm not asking you what Scripture says. I'm asking you what your conscience says independently of what Scripture says. Are you able to assess what your conscience says independently from Scripture?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So you're saying "I'm seeking God, so what I feel is right and wrong must be universally right and wrong"?

If it seems to you that it's wrong to eat meat then don't eat meat. It's not that hard. If you want to tell others that they shouldn't eat meat you need something a lot more solid than "it feels wrong to me".

The Bible doesn't say you have to eat meat, merely that you may eat meat. If you don't want to eat meat nobody is forcing you. People get lost between mandates and prohibitions and lose sight of the fact that many things are optional. There's nothing wrong with eating lima beans, I just choose not to because I don't like the taste of them. There's nothing wrong with eating cow but you may choose not to because you're concerned about humane farming or simply prefer not to eat animals.

That's not so simple. If the book I'm supposed to believe is the Word of God not only approves of, but also commands (in the Old Testament) what my experience with God indicates to be evil, I have a lot of reason for concern. Either the book is wrong or my experience is wrong. Considering that I have applied the book to my life and it proved itself inconsistent in offering the promised results, I find myself in quite a conundrum regarding the moral values that I have to believe.

The way in which you (plural you) dismiss killing animals to consume their meat as just another mandate and prohibition seems mindboggling to me.

 

[tango]

Owning a car doesn't cause pain to another creature. Driving it might, but that's another topic altogether.

You have two issues going on here. Your first was that it's possible to exist on a plant-based diet. The fact that it is possible does not mean it is mandated. We could live without central heating, we could live without eating meat, we could live without eating ice cream but the fact we can doesn't mean that we must.

Research has shown that plants don't experience pain and can regenerate. Fruits that are picked from trees have no nervous system to experience pain. Neither do potatoes.

I'm not asking you what Scripture says. I'm asking you what your conscience says independently of what Scripture says. Are you able to assess what your conscience says independently from Scripture?

My conscience says that I'm quite happy eating meat. I prefer to source meat from places that treat animals more humanely, simply because the meat tastes better.

My conscience is also clear when I shoot rabbits and squirrels in my back yard. The only reason I rarely shoot larger pests is because a pellet gun isn't enough to kill them and a more powerful gun runs an unacceptable risk of a stray bullet hitting something in the land behind my yard.

 

[Josiah]

So you're saying "I'm seeking God, so what I feel is right and wrong must be universally right and wrong"?

If it seems to you that it's wrong to eat meat then don't eat meat. It's not that hard. If you want to tell others that they shouldn't eat meat you need something a lot more solid than "it feels wrong to me".

The Bible doesn't say you have to eat meat, merely that you may eat meat. If you don't want to eat meat nobody is forcing you. People get lost between mandates and prohibitions and lose sight of the fact that many things are optional. There's nothing wrong with eating lima beans, I just choose not to because I don't like the taste of them. There's nothing wrong with eating cow but you may choose not to because you're concerned about humane farming or simply prefer not to eat animals.

.

 

[tango]

That's not so simple. If the book I'm supposed to believe is the Word of God not only approves of, but also commands (in the Old Testament) what my experience with God indicates to be evil, I have a lot of reason for concern. Either the book is wrong or my experience is wrong. Considering that I have applied the book to my life and it proved itself inconsistent in offering the promised results, I find myself in quite a conundrum regarding the moral values that I have to believe.

So either you are wrong or God is wrong. If you believe God created everything I wouldn't bet too heavily on God being wrong.

You still seem to be saying "I prayed, this is how I feel, therefore this must be right". That means setting up how you feel as if it were the ultimate objective yardstick with which to determine right and wrong. Our thoughts and desires don't instantly snap into alignment just because we pray about something, if we make a decision to follow God we will quite often have to make an active decision to do something that doesn't align with what we want in the here and now.

The way in which you (plural you) dismiss killing animals to consume their meat as just another mandate and prohibition seems mindboggling to me.

I don't see anything being dismissed as you describe. The point about mandates and prohibitions is that not everything is one or the other. If you find you can't eat meat with a clear conscience then don't eat meat. Unless you can point to a verse in Scripture that says you must eat meat, or a verse that says you must not eat meat, you get to decide for yourself. If you want to eat meat or not eat meat you can make your own decision - whether you decide based on the taste, the morality, the cost, health issues, or whatever else doesn't matter.

 

[Albion]

Research has shown that plants don't experience pain and can regenerate. Fruits that are picked from trees have no nervous system to experience pain. Neither do potatoes.

I'm not asking you what Scripture says. I'm asking you what your conscience says independently of what Scripture says. Are you able to assess what your conscience says independently from Scripture?

Certainly. And I already indicated that I'm opposed to permitting unnecessary pain when it comes to processing animals for food and perhaps some other important uses.

 

[1689Dave]

It's OK to eat animals since the flood. But we were created as vegans. The SDAs don't eat animals and they are one of the few Blue Zones, people who outlive meat eaters.

Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America's blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don't smoke or drink alcohol. Loma Linda, California - Blue Zones.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So either you are wrong or God is wrong.

I said no such thing. Either my experience in prayer is wrong or the book other people tell me was infallibly inspired by God is wrong. If my experience in prayer is wrong, then the very statements of the book are wrong because the book says "seek and you shall find". I sought and what I found opposes parts of the book that tell me to seek.

 

[Josiah]

I said no such thing. Either my experience in prayer is wrong or the book other people tell me was infallibly inspired by God is wrong. If my experience in prayer is wrong, then the very statements of the book are wrong because the book says "seek and you shall find". I sought and what I found opposes parts of the book that tell me to seek.

Friend, I think you are misapplying that verse (too). I don't think God is telling you that whatever YOU (sincerely) feel somehow "trumps" God's Word or is at least equal to it. You are not God's equal. BTW, I'm shocked to see this radical, extreme individualism from an Eastern Orthodox believer; I've found EO's to be passionately opposed to such and fully embracing community. But I digress.

No, the Bible does not contradict itself on this point, as you yourself has shown. Nowhere does the Bible state, "Thou canst not eat meat." It does indicate that God required that at the Passover but no, no such prohibition exists. And there is no verse that states, "Thou canst not kill animals" (although there is one about killing innocent, defenseless humans). Indeed, on one occasion at least, God ordered that. Now, you may personally CHOOSE to not eat meat (and not one person here would rebuke you for that personal choice) but it's a different thing to claim that Bible teaches that or that others are not permitted to eat meat.




.

 

[tango]

I said no such thing. Either my experience in prayer is wrong or the book other people tell me was infallibly inspired by God is wrong. If my experience in prayer is wrong, then the very statements of the book are wrong because the book says "seek and you shall find". I sought and what I found opposes parts of the book that tell me to seek.

What experience are you expecting in prayer? You keep referring to your "moral compass" and praying about stuff. Are you seriously expecting to say some prayers and have your moral compass miraculously converted into something that always points the right way? If it were as simple as that there would be no disagreement about anything among Christians because we'd all have our moral compasses perfectly aligned the same way.

"Seek and you shall find" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll find in the first place you look. Sometimes it takes a while to find something. Not wishing to be too simplistic but if you looked in your wallet and thought you'd lost a couple of dollars you probably wouldn't look too hard before shrugging and figuring it was gone. If you lost the family heirloom ring that belonged to your great-great-great-grandfather and had been passed down from father to son for generations you'd spend a lot more time looking, right?

 

[Doran]

He hasn't responded to a single argument, neither have you. Yes kill means murder, killing animals is also murder.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

God cannot tempt, nor command sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Daniel, I've perused virtually this entire thread and with all due respect, sir, you seem to have a penchant for interpreting your "proof" texts out of context. Take the Isaiah passage above. Verse 2a in that very passage sets the context and tells us that God is speaking hyperbolically ; in other words he speaking in relative terms to make a contrast between what he truly desires against mere external rituals. Here's how v. 2 reads:

Isa 66:2
2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?"
declares the LORD.

"This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word.
NIV

Both Israel and Judah were thoroughly apostate nations for the most part. They excelled in paying God lip service while their heart was far removed from him (Isa 29:13). The Old Covenant people of God were quite skilled in the practice of external religious rituals (such as animal sacrifices that were commanded in the Law of Moses); but quite deficient internallly (spiritually) in getting their hearts right before the Lord. 2a above is telling us what God really desired. Then notice that v. 3 begins with the all-important 3-letter word "BUT". This tells us immediately that God was contrasting the people in 2a with the external, ritualistic specialists in verse 3.

Scripture employs every conceivable form of human speech, so we should not be surprised at the hyperbole used here to drive home a point. Jesus himself used hyperbole when he told the crowds following them that unless they hate their moms and dads, brothers and sisters, and their spouses and their children, they cannot be his disciple (Lk 14:26). What Jesus was really saying that if they love their family more than him, they are not worthy of him. He was speaking in comparative or relative terms (NOT in absolutes), as God was in Isa 66:3.

One more thing: When God made his covenant with Noah (who actually became mankind's representative at that point in human history), the Lord sanctioned the killing and eating of animals (Gen 9:1-3). And that sanction has never been abrogated.

 

[Faith]

-The simple answer is no, it isn't.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

-But some may add unto the word, saying "thou shalt not kill humans, and humans only", when that is not what is written. A kill is killing anything that has the Breath of Life in it, given by the Father, and animals do have this Breath of Life, the living soul of the Father.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

-So, because animals have this Breath of Life, it is unlawful to kill them, it is a sin against God and His Breath, and against His Will, for how can you take away that which God has given, and how can you kill that which God made alive?

-Also, animals were created innocent, and were seen as "very good" by the Father. And the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, so all sons are born innocent.
-Animals are capable of sin, evident by the sin of the snake, which was a "beast of the field that the LORD God had made", and she was punished accordingly, proving it was a sin for her to lie, because God punished her.

So, animals are created innocent, and are to be presumed innocent until they sin. Meaning they have innocent blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Well, I’m against hunting and killing beautiful deer, elephants etc. but OTOHi do eat meat albeit very little, andI do wear leather so I guess I’m a hypocrite.

 

[Doran]

Well, I’m against hunting and killing beautiful deer, elephants etc. but OTOHi do eat meat albeit very little, andI do wear leather so I guess I’m a hypocrite.

Under this New Covenant Gospel Age we are not to judge one another regarding food or drink (Col 2:16). This is an area of Christian freedom.