Is freewill biblical or something we invented as society ?

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20.
20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Here G-d gives Adam gives him ability to think for himself and he decide the animals name.

There is difference from the freewill Hebrew people back in the days of Noah and Moses when the law was directed to G-d's people they had freewill to decide. Their decision is under the law because they did not know other religions or ways they were narrowminded but still the decision from good and evil existed. Did the errors of their fathers before them I mean the fall of Adam stopped them making decisions in their life. Israel did what they want based still of need of surviving. Killing, eating, proceating needs of humanity but no matter what the error of Adam did not take freewill from them.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.”

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 110:2 "Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew."



From the day pagans evolved into modern world and establish their own way. Even thou they seperated from their pagan worhsip Rome forced them to mix their deities and influence with christianism and robbed the followers of Christ of Jesus and they painted him white. Named the G-d of Israel to Zeus and change their panteon.

Hebrew law or mosaic law reminds people to obey but G-d has taken prophets to save and do the will of G-d in wars, missions, and choosing good and evil. They break the law in disobeying G-d, prophets like Jeremiah who chose G-d disobey tradition and his father and told Israel their errors and love for the temple forgotten the temple inside they are made of. Kick Jeremiah out of their circle rejected from society he continued, we have Elijah who many don't talk about but he change the words of G-d and sentence Jezabel but G-d only wanted to punish Jezabel but Elijah added her family as punishment. G-d was angry at Elijah but forgave him. Still G-d's plan was only Jezabel but he made an exception for Elijah and freewill existed and changed yes G-d allows it.

People can change their course in life but what is the promblem from today. Is how the Greek way of thinking of liberalism was popular in the time of Jesus.

James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."

2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."


And Greeks influence the time of jesus that people like Luke wrote his book in the bible and later Catholic church not knowing fully Hebrew culture copied things from greeks and influence the bible. Remember they were not G-d's people but A country that stoled and wrote their intrepretation of G-d and took Jesus as an emblema that is not real.

Greek theology is freedom and rationalist thought, Hebrew people is Law and Relation with the one G-d. Greeks have influence the modernworld and gives them right, the western world copies Greek and Roman culture and their diffinity in their laws have given the modern topic freewill. So freewill clashes with freewill in the old times. That is why everything has to do with predestination, Calvanism go ahead and read see all our versions of choosing good and evil have consequences but still you decide your future.


There are 2 fields :indeterminism and determinism explain modern freewill and both give notion of control. Indeterminism means free acts are not determine in other words what you do with works does not foretold your future and the path you have chosen. Determinism says everything you do has already decided your future and you have no career. Nothing can change your destiny but G-d can.

Matthew 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

God's general sovereignty- says god is in charge of everything but doesn't control everything
God's specific sovereignty- says that He not only has ordained everything, but He also controls everything.

Proverbs 16:9 “The mind of the man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 3:5-6"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.


The "Synergism vs. Monergism" debate deals ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY with the issue of Justification (attaining salvation, spiritual life, a changed relationship with God, what some call initial justification or "born again"). It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the philosophy of determinism or fate. Whether I eat an English muffin or oatmeal for breakfast this morning is a matter of free will, my free choice. But a spiritually DEAD person, cannot give himself life, God is the "Author and Giver of Life" (as we proclaim in the Nicene Creed), a dead person CANNOT (the Bible says) even say "Jesus is Lord" Synergists insist that Jesus saves no one.... but each dead, lifeless, godless person saves themselves by either giving themselves faith or doing enough faithless works or surrendering their will to the god they don't believe exists. Monergists believe that Jesus is the Savior and Jesus thus saves. BUT this ONLY concerns salvation (in a very narrow sense). NO ONE claims that God alone can choose whether I eat an English muffin or oatmeal this morning.... whether one buys a Toyota or a Subaru. Yes, God may GUIDE in some cases but this js a different issue that a dead person giving himself life - or not.




.
 

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
G-d is giver of life, you have the right to choose. G-d is good he gave adam the ability to choose the name of the animals and even Elijah made A mistake and he changed what G-d said and changed Jezabel's sentence, G-d forgave Elijah and God's plan changed because of what Elijah and he let it because he loved Elijah. Destiny can change and the lord gives it freewill or conception of choosing good or evil is something G-d gave because he loves us and shows the relationship of trust and love is with him.
 

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
1 Corinthians 10:12-14


So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
1. Christians are threatened and even overtaken by sins brought about through temptations.

2. God never allows us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, but rather provides an escape so that we don’t give in and fall into the sin action that the temptation prompts in us.

3. Yet Christians sin, not only are they “overtaken” in the above quote, but also in 1 John 1:8 there’s the clear report that Christians sin. Most people agree Christians are sinners too.

Conclusion: Every time a Christian sins, the Bible says God provided a way to “escape” falling into that sin. Christians have the freewill to either use that escape route or to reject the God given means to avoid yielding to temptation.

Christians have proper freewill, meaning the ability to do otherwise in any given situation. Freewill isn’t simply “a belief” but an experience, something we can confirm with our own facilities as easily as we confirm light, heat, sound and sights.

Posters who use their counter causal freedom to deny counter causal freedom are deeply confused.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Conclusion: Every time a Christian sins, the Bible says God provided a way to “escape” falling into that sin. Christians have the freewill to either use that escape route or to reject the God given means to avoid yielding to temptation.

Christians have proper freewill, meaning the ability to do otherwise in any given situation. Freewill isn’t simply “a belief” but an experience, something we can confirm with our own facilities as easily as we confirm light, heat, sound and sights.

Posters who use their counter causal freedom to deny counter causal freedom are deeply confused.


I don't think anyone disagrees.....
I don't think there are Christians who embrace the philosophy of FATE (EVERYTHING in life is predetermined, EVERYTHING is just being like a puppet on a string).

The debate is not over what CHRISTIANS may or may not be able to choose, or even what pagans may or may not be able to choose in terms of the world (whether to buy a Toyota or Subaru for example). The "debate" (and it's big) concerns justification. And ONLY justification. Some say we save ourselves because the spiritually dead have the freewill to give themselves life and/or faith... nonchristians, nonbelievers, those without the Holy Spirit, by virtue of their own free choice, have the ability to do or not do that for themselves (Jesus opening the door... the dead atheist exercising his free will to walk through that door). That's the synergist view. The monergist view is that Jesus saves us.

This illustration is one I've heard:

Synergism: The way of the monkey. A baby monkey trapped in a fire. Mom runs in... the baby chooses to jump on her back and hang on... mom runs out, baby is saved. The baby is saved because it excercise it's freewill and chose to jump on and hang on.
Monergism: The way of the cat. Kitten is trapped in a fire. Mon runs in, picks up kitten, takes kitten out. The kitten is saved because mom saved him.
Of course, this illustration breaks down because a kitten or baby monkey is alive.... unregenerate people are dead; hard to understand how the dead have freewill. Perhaps the illustration is better if both the baby monkey and kitten are unconscience.

Now, ONCE SAVED, that monkey and kitten both - equally- have "free will" to eat a banana or a grape, to run or walk, all the matters of this world.


I hope that makes sense.
 

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Certainly it is true that we live in flawed sinful world. Satan tells Jesus in Luke 4:6 "the world is mine and I give it to whomever I wish". So then our sinful nature and the flawed world are certainly a "problem". But God has influence both on the heart of man and in the world holding back the tide of evil. So despotism is of the evil one but a "checks and balances" system where government is designed under the assumption that "people even in government , are prone to having bad ideas and need checks and balances" - is better then just ruling via a handful of despots. Its like placing some band aids and patches on a failing system rather than just letting it all fall apart.
 

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
When God was preparing to judge Nineveh, he sent an unwilling Jonah to preach judgement there. The judgement was based upon Nineveh's wickedness - not God's will for the city. Nineveh was spared because through their free will the whole city repented of their wickedness.

If God's Will was being done perfectly on Earth, we would be experiencing Heaven on Earth. The vanilla statement "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that was not God's Will and "be" is the present tense. There is no sin or sickness in Heaven.
Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
When God was preparing to judge Nineveh, he sent an unwilling Jonah to preach judgement there. The judgement was based upon Nineveh's wickedness - not God's will for the city. Nineveh was spared because through their free will the whole city repented of their wickedness.

If God's Will was being done perfectly on Earth, we would be experiencing Heaven on Earth. The vanilla statement "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that was not God's Will and "be" is the present tense. There is no sin or sickness in Heaven.
Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


Two ENTIRELY different things....




 

grumix8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
72
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Seventh Day Adventist
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Still everything is based on deciding good and evil, we are giving A choice follow with our heart or our mind. The purpose he gaves us defined us and will give us the asnwer were looking.
 

Fritz Kobus

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
501
Location
Next to Detroit MI
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Regarding free will, John 6:44 makes it very clear that we do not have free will in choosing God:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Once we are born again and have received the Holy Spirit we have free will, in the Spirit, to obey God, or in the flesh, to disobey God. When we obey God it is not us (our flesh) but God in us that is doing the choosing and obeying. So, we can never claim any credit for any of the good we do.

So, yeah, the flesh alone has only free will to do evil.
 

Lanman87

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
294
Age
52
Location
Bible Belt
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
So, yeah, the flesh alone has only free will to do evil.
That is basically the point Luther made in "The Bondage of the Will" and later Jonathan Edwards made in "Freedom of the Will"

It is not that the non justified cannot do good things, plenty of non-Christians give to charity and help folks in various ways. It is that even those choices to do good things are done for fleshly reasons, even if that reason is that is just makes them feel good to help someone.

What non-Christian don't have the power to do is Love God and Love others with a Godly selfless love that comes from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and with the purpose of bring glory to God and expanding His Kingdom on earth. Our relationship with God changes our relationship with others and it gives us the power to truly "choose" to follow God instead of following our own selfish desires.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
That is basically the point Luther made in "The Bondage of the Will" and later Jonathan Edwards made in "Freedom of the Will"

It is not that the non justified cannot do good things, plenty of non-Christians give to charity and help folks in various ways. It is that even those choices to do good things are done for fleshly reasons, even if that reason is that is just makes them feel good to help someone.

What non-Christian don't have the power to do is Love God and Love others with a Godly selfless love that comes from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and with the purpose of bring glory to God and expanding His Kingdom on earth. Our relationship with God changes our relationship with others and it gives us the power to truly "choose" to follow God instead of following our own selfish desires.


Well said...

But for Luther, the context of this is especially justification (in the narrow sense). It's primarily an affirmation of SOLI DEO GLORIA, that God does the justification, it's a "free gift" and blessing that God does and gives.

The spiritually dead certainly have a certain "free-will" in other matters, say whether to eat oatmeal or Cheerios for breakfast, to buy a Subaru or Toyota. And the spiritually dead can do relatively good things (although Lanman's point above is very valid and a point Luther also stressed).

Blessings on your New Year...

- Josiah




.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
590
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Without free will you Cannot sin!
You are a robot or a slave!
 

Faithhopeandcharity

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
590
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Jn 3:16 whosoever

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Free will to choose

Jn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,906
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It is not that the non justified cannot do good things, plenty of non-Christians give to charity and help folks in various ways. It is that even those choices to do good things are done for fleshly reasons, even if that reason is that is just makes them feel good to help someone.
I think our minds need to be made up here (not addressing only you, but others who have posted on the forum). Some would argue that it is not possible for one to "do good". One may appear to do "good acts" (subjective), but this does not make them objectively "good" by God's standard.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Jn 3:16 whosoever

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Free will to choose

Jn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


None of those Scriptures state that the dead, unregenerate, sinful enemy of God has "FREE WILL" to give self life, faith and salvation.


.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
590
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of those Scriptures state that the dead, unregenerate, sinful enemy of God has "FREE WILL" to give self life, faith and salvation.


.
The dead? Who said anything about the dead?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
11,615
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The dead? Who said anything about the dead?


The unjustified are unregenerate... they are DEAD, spiritually DEAD as the Bible states. The DEAD have no spiritual will because they have no spiritual life.

The verses you shared have NOTHING to do with those who are dead, nothing to do with "free will" in justification.



.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
590
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I assumed the op refered to Christians
 
Top Bottom