Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

[Lamb]

Your first paragraph is false.
Those who do not inherit the Kingdom are the goats. They are and always have been under the curse. The sheep are and always have been the recipients of the inheritance.
Matthew 25 makes this clear. Ephesians 1 makes this clear.
Michael, your rejection of God's overwhelming teaching on predestination, election and choosing leads you to lift up human works as the means of maintaining salvation rather than accepting that what God begins in you, he will finish. We who are elect cannot not walk in fellowship with God. God's discipline will prevail.
Very simply put, your interpretation of scripture leads you to false conclusions.

Those who lift up human works are fearful of relying totally on God to save them.

 

[Michael]

Those who lift up human works are fearful of relying totally on God to save them.

What does that mean?
Sounds lie a defense of the unscriptural doctrine of OSAS or 'eternal forgiveness.'
Salvation is the beginning of our wilderness journey.

Show me a single verse in the Bible saying "salvation" is the end of our faith, and guarantees us heaven when we die. There is none. But I can show you how every verse in the canon of Scripture confirms what God has said and what I teach.

Those who are afraid, are those who are terrified that their sins will be exposed in that Day and they will actually be held accountable (as the Bible says of the saints in numerous places.) So they desperately grasp at any teaching that says they're OK because of what Jesus did even if they don't "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus" or "present their bodies a living sacrifice" or "turn from their wicked ways" and "stop sinning."

Again, never does God judge or reward anyone by their doctrine, professed 'belief', or statement of faith.
He judges and rewards all men according to our works. (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, Rev 22:12)

May you an I and all He has called be found worthy in that Day.

 

[Michael]

I've read the entire bible through multiple times.

So based upon your confession of faith, God cannot save you based on Jesus' merits alone. You don't believe that Jesus is sufficient for your salvation. As a proclaimed Christian, doesn't that sound wrong?

Friend, we are not talking about "salvation" here. Of course you & I are "saved." But that is the BEGINNING of our journey, not the end.
Paul is very clear on this in 1Cor 10, which I have spent much time teaching in - http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/1corinthians-10-study

Lord, lift the veil that covers the bulk of church-goers today and let us see Your Word for what it actually says.
Thank You, Father, that there are those with "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" and will press in to overcome and attain to all the promises. Indeed "few will find it." May we be among those precious few. Amen.

 

[Lamb]

Friend, we are not talking about "salvation" here. Of course you & I are "saved." But that is the BEGINNING of our journey, not the end.
Paul is very clear on this in 1Cor 10, which I have spent much time teaching in - http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/1corinthians-10-study

Lord, lift the veil that covers the bulk of church-goers today and let us see Your Word for what it actually says.
Thank You, Father, that there are those with "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" and will press in to overcome and attain to all the promises. Indeed "few will find it." May we be among those precious few. Amen.

The beginning and end is both Jesus. He is our salvation. The end of my journey here on earth is eternal life with God. I can't earn my way into that. Jesus did that for me.

What I do now that Jesus has me covered in His righteousness is to live a godly life because it shows love for God and also my neighbor. I don't earn anything by being a good girl and you don't earn anything by being a good boy. What church teaches that nonsense?

 

[Lamb]

What does that mean?
Sounds lie a defense of the unscriptural doctrine of OSAS or 'eternal forgiveness.'
Salvation is the beginning of our wilderness journey.

Show me a single verse in the Bible saying "salvation" is the end of our faith, and guarantees us heaven when we die. There is none. But I can show you how every verse in the canon of Scripture confirms what God has said and what I teach.

Those who are afraid, are those who are terrified that their sins will be exposed in that Day and they will actually be held accountable (as the Bible says of the saints in numerous places.) So they desperately grasp at any teaching that says they're OK because of what Jesus did even if they don't "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus" or "present their bodies a living sacrifice" or "turn from their wicked ways" and "stop sinning."

Again, never does God judge or reward anyone by their doctrine, professed 'belief', or statement of faith.
He judges and rewards all men according to our works. (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, Rev 22:12)

May you an I and all He has called be found worthy in that Day.

I don't believe in OSAS because the bible says that man can fall away. The bible also says that God is with me all my days. God makes a promise to me and I believe that promise. Do YOU?

You say you are afraid of your sins being exposed on the last day. Does that mean you don't believe your sins are forgiven because of Jesus' death on the cross????????

John 3:15 "that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life."

 

[Michael]

I don't believe in OSAS because the bible says that man can fall away. The bible also says that God is with me all my days. God makes a promise to me and I believe that promise. Do YOU?

You say you are afraid of your sins being exposed on the last day. Does that mean you don't believe your sins are forgiven because of Jesus' death on the cross????????

John 3:15 "that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life."

I'm not afraid of my sins being exposed, as I am striving to deal with them now that they may be removed in that Day when Jesus returns. The current 'doctrine' that God sees us through Christ is dangerous to say the least. Indeed our "past sins" were forgiven when we accepted the Blood Atonement, but as all the writers of the New Testament affirm, we must then "stop sinning" and "put to death the deeds of the flesh." Jesus cannot repent for us, that WE must DO.
It is amazing that what the Apostles had to do in order to remain in God's favor and attain unto the promises, we now teach that a simple repeated prayer and a lifting of the hand and it's all done.
Lord, we need that Back-to-the-Bible Revival in our churches today.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not afraid of my sins being exposed, as I am striving to deal with them now that they may be removed in that Day when Jesus returns. The current 'doctrine' that God sees us through Christ is dangerous to say the least. Indeed our "past sins" were forgiven when we accepted the Blood Atonement, but as all the writers of the New Testament affirm, we must then "stop sinning" and "put to death the deeds of the flesh." Jesus cannot repent for us, that WE must DO.
It is amazing that what the Apostles had to do in order to remain in God's favor and attain unto the promises, we now teach that a simple repeated prayer and a lifting of the hand and it's all done.
Lord, we need that Back-to-the-Bible Revival in our churches today.

Galatians 3:1-18,25-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers:even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.S

 

[Lamb]

I'm not afraid of my sins being exposed, as I am striving to deal with them now that they may be removed in that Day when Jesus returns. The current 'doctrine' that God sees us through Christ is dangerous to say the least. Indeed our "past sins" were forgiven when we accepted the Blood Atonement, but as all the writers of the New Testament affirm, we must then "stop sinning" and "put to death the deeds of the flesh." Jesus cannot repent for us, that WE must DO.

So you believe only SOME of your sins were nailed to the cross? That's what your church teaches? God chose SOME of your sins to forgive there? Do you see how that makes absolutely no theological sense?

God sees us through Christ because that's what the bible says. We are clothed in Christ's righteousness. Galatians 3:27.

Our repentance is not the cause of our forgiveness. God leads us to repent of our sins and He does forgive us but only because Jesus died for those exact sins at the cross.

 

[psalms 91]

So you believe only SOME of your sins were nailed to the cross? That's what your church teaches? God chose SOME of your sins to forgive there? Do you see how that makes absolutely no theological sense?

God sees us through Christ because that's what the bible says. We are clothed in Christ's righteousness. Galatians 3:27.

Our repentance is not the cause of our forgiveness. God leads us to repent of our sins and He does forgive us but only because Jesus died for those exact sins at the cross.

How about the sins we keep doing with no repentance? Are they also forgiven without repentance. The problem here is that once saved we are called to obedience and if we do not obey then what? I am not talking messing up and asking forgiveness with repentance I am asking about those sins we just keep doing and never ask for forgiveness, are they forgiven or does the bible say we need to repent

 

[Lamb]

How about the sins we keep doing with no repentance? Are they also forgiven without repentance. The problem here is that once saved we are called to obedience and if we do not obey then what? I am not talking messing up and asking forgiveness with repentance I am asking about those sins we just keep doing and never ask for forgiveness, are they forgiven or does the bible say we need to repent

Could you start a new thread please with these questions so we can get back to the topic? I'll answer there.

 

[MennoSota]

How about the sins we keep doing with no repentance? Are they also forgiven without repentance. The problem here is that once saved we are called to obedience and if we do not obey then what? I am not talking messing up and asking forgiveness with repentance I am asking about those sins we just keep doing and never ask for forgiveness, are they forgiven or does the bible say we need to repent

The struggle, I think, is that you see salvation on a timeline...a spot in time where you chose God and he saved you. Therefore, you think that you can also "unchoose" God if you fail in obedience.
Whereas, I see that God's chosen were adopted from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:3-5) God chose to redeem me. God chooses to discipline me. God chooses to sanctify me. God chooses to grant me the faith to believe. God says He will never leave me nor forsake me.
Never once have I been the one calling the shots with God. God has always been the one who would not let me go.
https://youtu.be/qmk9sfX_QPY

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Friend, we are not talking about "salvation" here. Of course you & I are "saved." But that is the BEGINNING of our journey, not the end.
Paul is very clear on this in 1Cor 10, which I have spent much time teaching in - http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/1corinthians-10-study

Lord, lift the veil that covers the bulk of church-goers today and let us see Your Word for what it actually says.
Thank You, Father, that there are those with "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" and will press in to overcome and attain to all the promises. Indeed "few will find it." May we be among those precious few. Amen.

You need to sit with some teachers who know the original languages and can teach you what the Bible actually says. Remeber you're reading an English translation of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts. You need to dig deeper. Salvation is not the beginning of a journey. All the apostles point to Jesus and what He has done for us sinners. Jesus even said "It is finished." (John 19:28-30)

You point to self and what we must now continue to do. What did Jesus say? He told the thief on the cross, that tonight you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) What did the thief on the cross do to get there? Jesus told the disciples that His Father's house has many mansions and that He was going to go and prepare a place for them. (John 14:2) What did they do to earn that place with Jesus? It's written "to be absent from the body, is to be present with Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).

God has numbered our days, unless we find ourselves in extraordinary circumstances, we don't decide when we die, God does. You're not teaching the Christian faith here, or in your videos. You're actually teaching against the faith. I pray that the scales fall from your eyes and you finally see the truth of what the apostles say and what Scripture teaches. It all points to Christ.

 

[FredVB]

Abram knew where God was sending him, but he settled in Haran instead.

Genesis 11:31 Terah took Abram his son and Lot the son of Haran, his grandson, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram’s wife, and they went forth together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan, but when they came to Haran, they settled there.

God, later, has to speak to Abram and get him out of his comfort zone.

Genesis 12:1-4 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

This passage speaks about the graciousness of God. God allowed Abram to stop, despite the fact that Abram was supposed to go to Canaan.
We cannot judge Abram as God was essentially sending Abram to the third world country of Canaan when he and Sarai were comfortable with a wealthier culture that was far ahead of Caanan intellectually and economically.
God is kind and gracious.

The passages shown do not establish that Yahweh God was sending Abram from Ur to the land of Canaan and Abram knew it. Abram went with his father's family which intended to move on to the land of Canaan, but they didn't, and they stopped at Haran to live there instead. Abram went on himself, with just his wife, his servants, and Lot from his family, when God directed him to go on to the land of Canaan. That doesn't establish that Abram was disobedient to God before.

 

[FredVB]

The struggle, I think, is that you see salvation on a timeline...a spot in time where you chose God and he saved you. Therefore, you think that you can also "unchoose" God if you fail in obedience.
Whereas, I see that God's chosen were adopted from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:3-5) God chose to redeem me. God chooses to discipline me. God chooses to sanctify me. God chooses to grant me the faith to believe. God says He will never leave me nor forsake me.
Never once have I been the one calling the shots with God. God has always been the one who would not let me go.

As it says in Acts 16:31, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Do you think Yahweh God chooses who to redeem and adopt with no basis at all? What basis is there then other than that? I agree still that God choosing those who are redeemed and adopted means that none of them will be lost, none will even choose to not persist but just walk away from it. Those that are like that were never really being redeemed, and never with the real faith, even those that tasted of those good things. Those ones never had real repentance to turn from a sinful life.

 

[Josiah]

As it says in Acts 16:31, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Correct. it does not say, "the DEAD just give themselves spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ and thus salvation." It does not say "The DEAD have the free will to choose or reject the Gospel - no need for the Holy Spirit to do anything cuz the Dead csn do everythng." It does not say, "If the Dead choose Jesus as their personal Savior, God rewards that Good Work by giving them salvatiion."

Do you think Yahweh God chooses who to redeem and adopt with no basis at all? What basis is there then other than that? I agree still that God choosing those who are redeemed and adopted means that none of them will be lost, none will even choose to not persist but just walk away from it. Those that are like that were never really being redeemed, and never with the real faith, even those that tasted of those good things. Those ones never had real repentance to turn from a sinful life.

Ah,the radical Calvinists idea of OSAS? If so, we have other threads on that, this is is not concerning that (very horrible) theory.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Faith is a gift from God, not something we have in ourselves to turn us to Him.

Does everyone receive this gift?

 

[Lamb]

Does everyone receive this gift?

Scripture does not say how many people God gifts with faith.

 

[FredVB]

Correct. it does not say, "the DEAD just give themselves spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ and thus salvation." It does not say "The DEAD have the free will to choose or reject the Gospel - no need for the Holy Spirit to do anything cuz the Dead csn do everythng." It does not say, "If the Dead choose Jesus as their personal Savior, God rewards that Good Work by giving them salvatiion."

It does not say that, indeed. It does not say "the living just give themselves faith in Christ" either. It is only your interpretation that has that modification. It does not give any word or any indication of any thing to modify "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ", that is the basis, with no indication of any other basis. Where elsewhere in scriptures it is shown God chooses those who are saved, there is still no indication of any basis for the choices other than that. Nothing in scriptures shows this is wrong.

Ah,the radical Calvinists idea of OSAS? If so, we have other threads on that, this is is not concerning that (very horrible) theory.

No, I not at all radical Calvinists, or Calvinist at all, which should be apparent from what I communicate in posting. I don't learn and have not, for believing anything, from the extremes of either Calvinism or Arminianism. I learned what to believe from the scriptures, and seek to still do so. Overall in the scriptures there is strong basis for the security of true believers with assurances that they are sealed. This is not assurance to assume for ourselves that we are secure and don't need to do anything. If we don't do things and do not grow spiritually, this indicates that we are not real believers who are saved and secure. Real believers are told they should learn and grow, and they will, this distinguishes them. This is also not claiming we are perfect or come to perfection. I have not. There are some areas in my life that I can't tell that I have grown. But there are things in life in which there should be growth, that I have grown far in, such as sympathy with sensitivity to others, patience, and compassion.

I have no obligation or inclination to go to another thread for the discussion of this.

 

[Particular]

Correct. it does not say, "the DEAD just give themselves spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ and thus salvation." It does not say "The DEAD have the free will to choose or reject the Gospel - no need for the Holy Spirit to do anything cuz the Dead csn do everythng." It does not say, "If the Dead choose Jesus as their personal Savior, God rewards that Good Work by giving them salvatiion."







Ah,the radical Calvinists idea of OSAS? If so, we have other threads on that, this is is not concerning that (very horrible) theory.

OSAS is actually a traditionalist Baptist view. It is a view mixes some Arminian positions with Calvinist positions. Often someone who holds to OSAS will call themselves a 3 or 4 point Calvinist. They teach that God draws a person to him, but the individual has free-will to accept or reject God's salvation. But, once a person prays to receive God, by free will, God's Spirit seals that person unto eternity. The free-choice has been made. However, if the person rejects God initially, that person still has his lifetime to change his mind about God.
Rarely will you find a Calvinist who accepts the five points of Calvinism using the phrase, OSAS.
I have no idea what you consider a radical Calvinist to be. Is there something above 5 points?

 

[Josiah]

OSAS is actually a traditionalist Baptist view.

No, it's a radical invention of latter-day extreme Calvinists. It's just that SOME Baptists in the USA are Reformed Baptists, Baptists who largely embrace radical Calvinism but substitute the Anabaptist view of Baptism and the Zwinglian view of the Eucharist. There are "free will" Baptists and other Baptists who are not at all Calvinist in their theology.

Other than a loose embrace of the Anabaptist view on baptism, there is little that all Baptists have in common.

I still hold that OSAS is unbiblical (and terrible!) for reasons given already.




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