Covid Vaccine Deaths

Lämmchen

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It's difficult to find the exact numbers of people who have died after receiving the Covid vaccine. Since I have multiple allergies on my medical record of course it's natural for me to want to know how other people with allergies fared after receiving their vaccine.

What I'm finding is that experts are less inclined to mark a death from the vaccine as being a true death as a result of the vaccine. That's in opposition to the death count that you see blasted all over the news where anyone who died "with" the disease was marked as being a covid death. Why the change in the way it's counted if it's okay to count those "with" the disease as a death but they need to "wait longer" to determine if the death from the vaccine was actually caused by the vaccine?
 

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Immediate effects are pretty obvious. The most serious is anaphylaxis, but that's treatable. It's why they keep you for observation. For other things, it seems like it's statistics. Yes, there were blood clots from a few people in Europe. But apparently not more than usual. For Covid, the statistics show more deaths than we'd normally expect. The supposed "with" Covid reports, as far as I know, are for things that are known to be caused or aggravated by Covid.

I assume you don't want it to be like the early days in China where no one died of Covid. It was always reported as pneumonia or something else. Of course Covid does cause lung problems, which can technically be considered pneumonia.

Here's an example of a possible reaction and how the investigation was approached: Suspicions grow that nanoparticles in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine trigger rare allergic reactions. That's why you have to stay for observation after the shot. If it's real, it's at the rate of one per million, which is probably low enough to make the vaccine a good bet even if they couldn't deal with the side effect.

There could certainly be things we haven't detected, but by now they'd have to be at a low enough rate that it would still make sense to get the vaccine. At least for Pfizer and Modena. J and J hasn't had as many shots given, and AstroZeneca hasn't been approved yet in the US. If you're concerned with safety I'd stick with Pfizer or Moderna.
 

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Who did not see this coming?

 

Lämmchen

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Immediate effects are pretty obvious. The most serious is anaphylaxis, but that's treatable. It's why they keep you for observation. For other things, it seems like it's statistics. Yes, there were blood clots from a few people in Europe. But apparently not more than usual. For Covid, the statistics show more deaths than we'd normally expect. The supposed "with" Covid reports, as far as I know, are for things that are known to be caused or aggravated by Covid.

I assume you don't want it to be like the early days in China where no one died of Covid. It was always reported as pneumonia or something else. Of course Covid does cause lung problems, which can technically be considered pneumonia.

Here's an example of a possible reaction and how the investigation was approached: Suspicions grow that nanoparticles in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine trigger rare allergic reactions. That's why you have to stay for observation after the shot. If it's real, it's at the rate of one per million, which is probably low enough to make the vaccine a good bet even if they couldn't deal with the side effect.

There could certainly be things we haven't detected, but by now they'd have to be at a low enough rate that it would still make sense to get the vaccine. At least for Pfizer and Modena. J and J hasn't had as many shots given, and AstroZeneca hasn't been approved yet in the US. If you're concerned with safety I'd stick with Pfizer or Moderna.

As you said, immediate effects are pretty obvious. But some of us who have allergic reactions don't have immediate effects. My allergic reactions come an hour or two later and even though my throat doesn't fully close, I do experience part of it with some things. So that worries me. Waiting 15 minutes is laughable in my case.
 

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As you said, immediate effects are pretty obvious. But some of us who have allergic reactions don't have immediate effects. My allergic reactions come an hour or two later and even though my throat doesn't fully close, I do experience part of it with some things. So that worries me. Waiting 15 minutes is laughable in my case.
Sure. I think you should consult a doctor. The allergic reactions they've seen have been to specific things, so someone who knows should say whether that matches your profile. The reactions have been quicker than a few hours, but then they've explicitly advised certain people not to take the shot. Maybe you're in that group.
 

tango

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Installing something on a smartphone is all well and good but what about people who don't have a smartphone? In many rural areas cell service is sufficiently patchy it's not even worth owning a cellphone. I personally know several people who own simple phones - the old fashioned ones that can call and text and not much more.
 

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I have the same concerns as you. I finally opted to go ahead and get it as I trust the President less than the process to bring these to market. I have had anaphylactic shock in the past as well as numerous other allergic reactions. When I filled out the questionnaire, I had to state that I have allergies to medication and my worst one was anaphylactic shock. Where I received mine, those of us with issues had to stay an 30 minutes instead of 15 and there were paramedics at the ready. I was still somewhat concerned as sometimes my reactions can come hours or a couple of days later. The only following reaction I had to the vaccine was a headache which is one of the stated reactions.

I hope this helps as I had the same fears as you.
 

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I have the same concerns as you. I finally opted to go ahead and get it as I trust the President less than the process to bring these to market. I have had anaphylactic shock in the past as well as numerous other allergic reactions. When I filled out the questionnaire, I had to state that I have allergies to medication and my worst one was anaphylactic shock. Where I received mine, those of us with issues had to stay an 30 minutes instead of 15 and there were paramedics at the ready. I was still somewhat concerned as sometimes my reactions can come hours or a couple of days later. The only following reaction I had to the vaccine was a headache which is one of the stated reactions.

I hope this helps as I had the same fears as you.

I appreciate this! It's very helpful.

I have a friend who was in the hospital after having an extreme reaction and is reluctant to state what happened for fear of others not wanting to receive the vaccine. I will probably ask her privately soon once I know she's feeling better.
 

tango

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Further to my previous comment, it would also be nice if those who have recovered from the virus and have natural antibodies were recognized by such an approach.

I believe I had it in February last year. A friend who had almost identical symptoms to mine tested positive for antibodies in the summer, and recently tested positive again. So it looks like natural immunity lasts for at least 12 months, while they're still saying they don't know how long the vaccination-induced immunity will last.

But hey, who needs that when you can create a society built around "Papieren, bitte"?
 

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There is a certificate showing that you’ve been vaccinated. The app would just be more convenient documentation. Mine looks just like the photo here. Vaccination cards will be issued to everyone getting Covid-19 vaccine, health officials say. It’s not finished, since I’ve just gotten the first shot. In fact one purpose is as a cross check for the second appointment on the date and vaccine type from the first shot, though NJ has good electronic information on that.

I‘m afraid some need for documentation is unavoidable. I work at a university that is going to require all students to be vaccinated. That’s not new. We have existing vaccination requirements, as do K-12 and colleges generally. When I volunteered at a hospital as a kid, there was a chest X-ray requirement for TB. Many countries have existing requirements for international travel. Typically you get documentation from your doctor, but in this case vaccination is being done independent of your doctor.
 

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Further to my previous comment, it would also be nice if those who have recovered from the virus and have natural antibodies were recognized by such an approach.

I believe I had it in February last year. A friend who had almost identical symptoms to mine tested positive for antibodies in the summer, and recently tested positive again. So it looks like natural immunity lasts for at least 12 months, while they're still saying they don't know how long the vaccination-induced immunity will last.

But hey, who needs that when you can create a society built around "Papieren, bitte"?

A friend of mine had the virus a year ago and has antibodies still going strong in her body. The vaccine can't even claim a year of antibodies yet that we know of.
 

tango

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There is a certificate showing that you’ve been vaccinated. The app would just be more convenient documentation. Mine looks just like the photo here. Vaccination cards will be issued to everyone getting Covid-19 vaccine, health officials say. It’s not finished, since I’ve just gotten the first shot. In fact one purpose is as a cross check for the second appointment on the date and vaccine type from the first shot, though NJ has good electronic information on that.

I‘m afraid some need for documentation is unavoidable. I work at a university that is going to require all students to be vaccinated. That’s not new. We have existing vaccination requirements, as do K-12 and colleges generally. When I volunteered at a hospital as a kid, there was a chest X-ray requirement for TB. Many countries have existing requirements for international travel. Typically you get documentation from your doctor, but in this case vaccination is being done independent of your doctor.

There's a big difference between needing proof of vaccination to travel internationally and needing proof of vaccination to go grocery shopping.

There's also a big difference between expecting something while providing exemptions for people who have a genuine reason for not doing it, and imposing a universal requirement without exceptions. Imposing a requirement on top of a requirement (e.g. an app that runs on your smartphone, which instantly excludes people who don't have a smartphone) and then expecting it to perform the most basic social functions (banking, grocery shopping etc) might as well turn back into the "papieren, bitte" demand associated with less savory republics.

And that's before even considering the likelihood of fraud and forgery in producing vaccination certifications, and the glaring omission of people who have naturally recovered from the virus.
 

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The EEOC has said that if employers require it they have to make exceptions. I haven’t seen details about anything else.

I think people who have had it may still be required. For other diseases, immunity from vaccines lasts longer. I saw speculation that they might only need one dose, but haven’t seen anything specific. I have an employee who has had it. He still expects to get vaccinated after the rush is over, though our university hasn’t decided whether to require it for staff. We will for students. Presumably with the usual exceptions.
 

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I think we will find in the next few years that this vaccine will be like the influenza vaccine, a once a year thing.
 

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tango

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The EEOC has said that if employers require it they have to make exceptions. I haven’t seen details about anything else.

The last I read it seemed that something under emergency approval could not be legally required but once it was fully approved employers only had to make reasonable accommodations. In an office-type role it could be a reasonable accommodation to allow someone to work remotely but in something like a retail position it's not possible to work from home, which would mean the options were take a vaccine or be fired.

I think people who have had it may still be required. For other diseases, immunity from vaccines lasts longer. I saw speculation that they might only need one dose, but haven’t seen anything specific. I have an employee who has had it. He still expects to get vaccinated after the rush is over, though our university hasn’t decided whether to require it for staff. We will for students. Presumably with the usual exceptions.

The key thing now is that so much is unknown. We have data points that suggest natural immunity may last for 12-15 months or more while still the likes of Fauci waffle on about how we don't know what level of protection the vaccine offers or for how long. It really seems like Fauci's primary role is to keep people afraid of their own shadows - it's hard to see much of what comes out of his mouth doing anything other than saying we should get the vaccine but the vaccine doesn't change anything, and we don't know how long it lasts, and we don't know anything, but be a good sheep and stand in line for your shot.
 

Josiah

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This statement appears on the CDC website...


Over 145 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 29, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,509 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.



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tango

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0.0017% seems to be comparable to the fatality rate of COVID among those aged 18 and younger. So on that basis a rough-n-ready reckoning indicates the vaccine is more or less as dangerous as what it's supposed to protect us from.

Even for those a bit older, the fatality rate for those under 50 was 0.02% the last time I looked. I'm not sure that trading a 0.02% fatality rate for a 0.0017% fatality rate is as attractive an option as some would make out.

Of course it's hard to know whether one event has a direct causal relationship with another, but at the same time I'm naturally wary of a blanket "no evidence" statement, especially since we've been fed so much misinformation about this virus right from the beginning.
 

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There have been 551,000 deaths in the USA from Covid-19.

There have been 2,509 deaths from those receiving the vaccine (although not necessarily caused by it).

Covid-19 was the third leading cause of death in the USA in 2020.



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tango

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There have been 551,000 deaths in the USA from Covid-19.

There have been 2,509 deaths from those receiving the vaccine (although not necessarily caused by it).

Covid-19 was the third leading cause of death in the USA in 2020.

Sure, for the people at high risk of COVID the vaccine makes a lot of sense. For people like me with a 99.98% survival probability there doesn't seem a whole lot of point.

Of course that assumes the 551,000 deaths were actually deaths from COVID and not things like the heart attack victim who had COVID and was recorded as a COVID death. Since the flu seems to have gone away this year I wonder how many "COVID deaths" were actually flu deaths.

I really don't see a benefit from getting a shot that has a 95% chance of reducing a fatality rate that's already close enough to zero it's pretty much a rounding error, and there's clearly no tangible benefit to society because Fauci and co still insist that fully vaccinated people are still expected to wear socks on their heads. So if it doesn't benefit me and doesn't benefit society, who does it benefit?
 
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