Could be a life saving

Krissy Cakes

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hedrick

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Our grocery stores are now selling (non-certified) surgical type masks. Amazon now has vendors that are shipping three-layer cotton masks. (I haven't checked to see if you can actually get surgical masks.) It's probably past time for bandanas, etc.
 

tango

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I'm going to hazard a guess that the people near the bottom of the economic heap who haven't seen a paycheck in four weeks and still haven't seen a penny in unemployment are probably not going to spend anything more than is absolutely necessary to put something over their face. Especially in rural areas where it's not all that hard to keep a large enough distance from people that a mask is pointless most of the time.
 

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I noticed today that another major human trials study o Trump's highly touted cure, hydroxychloroquine, has shown it to be useless and actually contributed to a higher death rate. Why anyone takes that man seriously is beyond me.
 

hedrick

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I noticed today that another major human trials study o Trump's highly touted cure, hydroxychloroquine, has shown it to be useless and actually contributed to a higher death rate. Why anyone takes that man seriously is beyond me.
Still not a really well controlled study, although it's pretty suggestive. If I were a betting man I'd bet that this won't end up being used. But without a real study we won't be sure.

The problem with it is that people weren't assigned randomly. The people who got the treatment were on average sicker. There are statistical things you can do to control for this, and they did, but it's still not a definitive study.
 

tango

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Still not a really well controlled study, although it's pretty suggestive. If I were a betting man I'd bet that this won't end up being used. But without a real study we won't be sure.

The problem with it is that people weren't assigned randomly. The people who got the treatment were on average sicker. There are statistical things you can do to control for this, and they did, but it's still not a definitive study.

I read of another antiviral, I forget the name, that's apparently very effective. I read a couple of articles about hydroxychloroquine - one suggested it was very effective and another that it was much less so. A friend of mine who is professionally involved in antivirals said it's effective against the virus in a laboratory but it's unknown whether it is effective in humans without increasing the dose past the point of toxicity.
 

Lämmchen

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I noticed today that another major human trials study o Trump's highly touted cure, hydroxychloroquine, has shown it to be useless and actually contributed to a higher death rate. Why anyone takes that man seriously is beyond me.

Some of the studies in Europe said it was working though so I think we need to wait and see all the data to really know.

Could it possibly be that the virus had mutated again and that is a reason why it didn't work so recently?
 

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Interesting that Trump said to use a scarf haha. That actually is more or less so incorrect as being better than a mask. He always says a lot of stuff that's not true sometimes. I wonder if he said this on his twitter. It's quite interesting to me the type of things he says sometimes. Makes me laugh.
 

tango

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Interesting that Trump said to use a scarf haha. That actually is more or less so incorrect as being better than a mask. He always says a lot of stuff that's not true sometimes. I wonder if he said this on his twitter. It's quite interesting to me the type of things he says sometimes. Makes me laugh.

It depends exactly what you mean by "a mask".

Something like an N95 mask will offer some protection against airborne particles but if it's not worn correctly the protection is hugely compromised. A respirator will offer more protection, again if it's fitted properly. I have a respirator with P100 filters on it and have used it while grinding concrete indoors without breathing any measureable amounts of the fine dust.

Since it's almost impossible to find useful masks these days the idea is to put a bit of fabric over your mouth and nose based on the theory it might protect other people. Whether it offers any meaningful protection is debatable, and the way a lot of people wear loose flaps of material that barely cover their mouth and don't cover their nose at all renders them all but useless. Even then the theory is that something is probably better than nothing, even if only marginally. A scarf over your mouth and nose will be at least marginally more effective than nothing, and probably no less effective than some of the utterly useless contraptions I've seen that do nothing but technically tick a legislative box.
 

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Our grocery stores are now carrying surgical masks, so the time for scarves seems over. That's assuming that any mask other than N95 does anything. Studies are mixed. And remember that no one is claiming they protect you. The hope is that it will protect others from your coughs.
 

tango

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Our grocery stores are now carrying surgical masks, so the time for scarves seems over. That's assuming that any mask other than N95 does anything. Studies are mixed. And remember that no one is claiming they protect you. The hope is that it will protect others from your coughs.

My local post office has a sign saying "protect yourself and others" before waffling on about wearing a mask. When I go to access my box there I'm the only one in the place at least 95% of the time. But wearing a mask is apparently of utmost importance to protect, well, who exactly?

I know it's about protecting others, my point is that a bit of fabric hanging loosely in front of your mouth and/or nose does little to protect others, especially if it isn't even fitted very well. Something that doesn't cover the nose provides zero protection if the wearer breathes through their nose or sneezes; something that only very loosely covers the front of the mouth offers little protection if the wearer coughs particularly hard.

For myself I'll pass on spending money on bits of paper that fit uncomfortably over my face and only work for a short time before the elastic gives out, or the paper becomes sufficiently damp that it's even less pleasant to wear than normal. Not that I can find them anywhere, I can't even find basic dust masks for sale. I suspect many people who have been without a paycheck for nearly six weeks now will find they have more pressing things to pay for than masks when they can use a scarf that they don't have to pay for.
 

hedrick

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One of the requirements of a mask is to cover both mouth and nose. I don't wear one when I'm walking, because there's no one else around. I don't know about other places, but the requirements for NJ are for places where it's likely that people will be fairly close together.

NY goes further, but it's probably because of the population density of NYC. (I think fairly soon they're going to want separate rules for cities and upstate NY.)
 

Josiah

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NOWHERE around here can masks be purchased..... and when I checked the internet, "delivery" was literally MONTHS away.

My talented wife MADE a bunch. According to the instructions, they are actually more effective than the non-surgical ones some people somehow got.


She's also shared this video:





.



.
 

tango

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One of the requirements of a mask is to cover both mouth and nose. I don't wear one when I'm walking, because there's no one else around. I don't know about other places, but the requirements for NJ are for places where it's likely that people will be fairly close together.

The idea of the mask is it covers both but obviously a few people didn't get that memo.

I only wear one when going inside a business. Most of the businesses I go to are sufficiently quiet it makes precisely zero difference but the fuhrer governor issued an order and at least most local businesses are complying with it. Outside of businesses there's no point me wearing one so I don't bother.

NY goes further, but it's probably because of the population density of NYC. (I think fairly soon they're going to want separate rules for cities and upstate NY.)

It would be nice if politicians would understand that big urban areas are very different to remote rural areas and act accordingly. The one-size-fits-all approach is like using an attack helicopter to kill a spider.
 

Josiah

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It would be nice if politicians would understand that big urban areas are very different to remote rural areas and act accordingly. The one-size-fits-all approach is like using an attack helicopter to kill a spider.


.... I agree with this.

Perhaps understandably.... perhaps even an unavoidable INITIAL response.... we find government making SWEEPING generalizations and measures. Government believes in "one size fits all."

But in reality, it doesn't. IMO, as we "come back" we need to do this far more intelligently and with attention to the situation. It might make good sense to determine "This is the need." Then allow individual businesses, organizations, churches, agencies, etc. to determine how it can accomplish that. For example, my church could EASILY resume public worship - while keeping AT LEAST 6-feet physical distance, no touching, absolutely sanitary conditions - but we are closed because we are more than 10 in a space (of ANY size!) at one time. Now, I agree - this would require government to THINK and to trust the govern.... so, well, maybe it won't happen.



.
 

tango

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.... I agree with this.

Perhaps understandably.... perhaps even an unavoidable INITIAL response.... we find government making SWEEPING generalizations and measures. Government believes in "one size fits all."

But in reality, it doesn't. IMO, as we "come back" we need to do this far more intelligently and with attention to the situation. It might make good sense to determine "This is the need." Then allow individual businesses, organizations, churches, agencies, etc. to determine how it can accomplish that. For example, my church could EASILY resume public worship - while keeping AT LEAST 6-feet physical distance, no touching, absolutely sanitary conditions - but we are closed because we are more than 10 in a space (of ANY size!) at one time. Now, I agree - this would require government to THINK and to trust the govern.... so, well, maybe it won't happen.

This obsession with wiping and cleaning everything is part of the silliness.

At my local store they wipe the credit card machine every single time someone uses it. What's the point? Yes, there's a nasty virus going about but it's not as if it was sterile beforehand. For all I know the person who used it before me might have taken a massive dump in the bathroom and not washed their hands. It's my responsibility to wash my hands, not everybody else's responsibility to sterilize every single thing I might touch. If I decide to lick the pen used to sign the machine, or handle something of unknown cleanliness and then lick my fingers, that's my problem.

Even the initial response was hugely overblown. When my fuhrer governor shut everything down it looked like he was making it up as he went along. One order after another after another, coming into effect with as little as a few hours' notice. Because, you know, a business can figure out in three hours whether it qualifies as "essential" and how best to restructure given sweeping mandates to close the doors that might or might not apply to them. And in the meantime they shut down rural counties as fast as urban counties. I often to go my local hardware store and find more staff than customers in there. Thankfully they have stayed open although it's intensely tedious trying to speak through a piece of fabric to an assistant whose hearing aid is covered by his piece of fabric. My local shoe store is usually so quiet during the day midweek that I can go and try on shoes at my leisure, often being the only customer in there. But apparently that's so dangerous they have to close, and yet I can go and buy shoes at Walmart.

A friend of mine works at a retirement home. It makes sense for him to limit exposure to an extent that would look paranoid for someone like me. I live with my wife and find it very easy to maintain a distance from older, more vulnerable people. My understanding of the statistics is that if I get the virus the chances are 99% or better than I'll be just fine. I can avoid the older people who might not fare so well but, if they want to see me, I figure they are all grown up and can decide for themselves whether they want to take the chance. One couple I know are in their 70s and immune-compromised, and they have locked themselves down very tightly; another couple of a similar age and similar medical conditions are going stir crazy on their own and asked my wife and I if we could visit them, so we went to their house and just sat at opposite ends of their kitchen table. I think of it much like drinking and driving - the law allows me to drink as much as I want, and the law allows me to drive. It just doesn't allow me to do both. When I'm in the pub about to drink my 5th beer there is no process that inherently stops me from getting in a car and driving home - I'm trusted to do the right thing. But apparently I can't be trusted not to go to the nightclub, party until 3am and go to the old folks' home the next day.

For good measure it seems piling into Walmart is apparently safe but having someone stand behind me to cut my hair in an otherwise empty room is so dangerous it has to be banned. I'm allowed to hike the trails in the woods but as soon as I get back to the park I can no longer be trusted to keep six feet away from others if I take shelter under a pavilion, so they are all closed. The shelters are large enough that keeping six feet away from people is easy; many of the trails are narrow enough that it's impossible to pass more than six feet from someone coming the other way.

I was encouraged to see articles suggesting that the Michigan state legislature was looking into stripping their fuhrer governor of at least some of her powers. It seems the rules there are even more stupid than here. As you say, it requires the government to put some trust in the people. Sadly governments aren't often very good at doing that. I wonder how many more county sheriffs are going to refuse to enforce orders they consider unacceptable. That also seems to be a growing movement.
 

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It depends exactly what you mean by "a mask".

Something like an N95 mask will offer some protection against airborne particles but if it's not worn correctly the protection is hugely compromised. A respirator will offer more protection, again if it's fitted properly. I have a respirator with P100 filters on it and have used it while grinding concrete indoors without breathing any measureable amounts of the fine dust.

Since it's almost impossible to find useful masks these days the idea is to put a bit of fabric over your mouth and nose based on the theory it might protect other people. Whether it offers any meaningful protection is debatable, and the way a lot of people wear loose flaps of material that barely cover their mouth and don't cover their nose at all renders them all but useless. Even then the theory is that something is probably better than nothing, even if only marginally. A scarf over your mouth and nose will be at least marginally more effective than nothing, and probably no less effective than some of the utterly useless contraptions I've seen that do nothing but technically tick a legislative box.

I agree a scarf is better than nothing. That's much is definitely true. I just don't think people should go on relying on that to protect them from the virus. Having a mask in my opinion if you are in a hot spot and you go out could save your life. Other places such as the country side it may not be so important to where a mask as you'd be highly unlikely to contract the virus. Still it's worth having one in certain areas.
 

tango

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I agree a scarf is better than nothing. That's much is definitely true. I just don't think people should go on relying on that to protect them from the virus. Having a mask in my opinion if you are in a hot spot and you go out could save your life. Other places such as the country side it may not be so important to where a mask as you'd be highly unlikely to contract the virus. Still it's worth having one in certain areas.

If you're wearing a high grade mask or respirator it will offer you protection, if it's fitted properly (if it's not well fitted it will still offer some protection but will obviously be less effective).

If you're wearing a regular paper mask or cloth mask it isn't supposed to protect you - the idea is that your mask protects me and my mask protects you. The concept is that if you cough the droplets that would otherwise be thrown into the air are caught by your mask, and likewise if I cough the droplets are caught by my mask. If I'm not wearing a mask and cough the droplets carrying the virus are small enough that a regular paper mask is unlikely to stop them.

Perhaps unsurprisingly since people started wearing masks there's less observance of physical distance, although it may be that people are starting to grow weary of it all and going about their lives as normally as possible.
 

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I do think we should treat different areas differently, but there is a caution: There are now clusters in odd places growing faster than NYC. In NJ, growth in the north is increasingly under control, but now cases are growing in the central and south areas.

That doesn't mean we should treat the whole country like NYC, but I'm concerned that some people seem to think because they don't have cases now, they're safe.
 

tango

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I do think we should treat different areas differently, but there is a caution: There are now clusters in odd places growing faster than NYC. In NJ, growth in the north is increasingly under control, but now cases are growing in the central and south areas.

That doesn't mean we should treat the whole country like NYC, but I'm concerned that some people seem to think because they don't have cases now, they're safe.

My concern is still that the "cure" is doing more damage than the disease. At present it seems we're being subjected to ever-more rules while the goalposts for reopening seem to keep shifting. The curve has been flattened, I think anyone who doesn't get the idea of maintaining some physical distance is never going to get it, and people have face coverings.

Reopening doesn't mandate anyone to go back to work if they feel unsafe, and doesn't mandate any business owner to open up shop if they feel unsafe. It just gives people the option. If you don't feel safe going back to work you might get fired, but chances are you've already been laid off since government diktat shut down the business anyway. At least you'll have a choice.
 
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