When people stop going to church this is what they start believing

It seems like a classic confusion of works and faith. How we treat people is of huge importance - Jesus himself talked of what we did "unto the least of these", but Paul also wrote that we can't earn salvation.

It's a classic way to take something loaded with truth and twist it just enough to be dangerous. As one writer put it, if we don't love our neighbor who we can see we can't claim to love God who we can't see. It just doesn't work to cut Jesus out of the equation and figure that "I'm a nice enough person" as if heaven was there for people who are "nice enough".

Psalms91, I like what you say, that you can't separate it out, how we treat others/obeying commands, and salvation. After all, how we treat others is a fruit of the Spirit (love). I think the point of the meme has more to do with "what really matters." What really matters is that God loved us first by sending his salvation in the Son, that we receive his gift of salvation, and then that we show the fruit of that salvation by allowing the Spirit to transform us, which manifests in how we treat others.

Lämmchen said:

I saw this meme on Facebook and it makes sense that people believe this when they are moving away from Jesus as Savior and looking to what they do...

The meme says
It doesn't matter
how many Sundays you
sit in church or if you
think you're saved. God
sees what you do and
how you treat people.
That's what really
matters. Amen.




Nothing about Jesus. Sure we expect Christians to treat others with love. But when the "that's what really matters" means more than Jesus, the cross and forgiveness then there is something wrong. Oh and I posted this thread with the title that I did because the person who shared the meme and others who liked it stopped going to church years ago.

Click to expand...

The DEVIL works hard, he works overtime.... all to get our focus off the Cross and on the mirror

His goal is to get us to make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible.

He is HAPPY to fit Jesus in there somehow, to praise and honor Jesus, to lavish Him will high sounding roles.... as long as our getting to heaven actually depends on ME so that Jesus is NOT the Savior.

Jesus can be the perfect teacher....He can be the Son of God..... He can be morally perfect.... He can be the divine miracle worker and the one who rose from the dead.... He can be the one who died for us.... He can be the One who opens the door to heaven for us.... He can be the one who offers heaven to us..... He can be the divine Helper without Whom no one can be saved.... yup..... the Devil is glad to shroud Him with the best, as long as He is not the SAVIOR, self is.

Sometimes, the DEVIL has to hide the hook in a lot of nice bait. And he's more than willing to do that. Even lavish his pitch with lots of Bible verses (as he even did with Jesus). You can adore and worship Jesus all you want, the Devil is fine with that, as long as He's not your SAVIOR.

Many fall for this. Many preach this.

When I hear the Devil preach this stuff, I tell him where to go. "God helps those who help themselves" "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta walk through it" "Jesus makes it possible for all to be saved but we choose to do it" and a thousand more lies - some very, very convincing, some even shrouded with Bible verses. When the Devil minimizes the Cross and maximizes the mirror.... when he calls our attention to ME and not to Christ.... when it's "Jesus did 99% of what's needed but it all depends on the 1% you do" JUST TELL HIM WHERE TO GO. And lift high the Cross.




.

I haven't gone to church since my mom's funeral, I do find that Loving God and Loving your neighbor as the key to Christan living.. I mean I would like to go to church but the Catholic church puts me to sleep, I enjoy online sermons and reading early church letters.. Clement of Rome writes so beautifully! Also Les Feldick is a blessing for me, I would love to attend one of his tapings..
I've yet to go to a Lutheran church, once I get a regular job here shortly I would like to church hop because I find all denominations fascinating.

I once saw a facebook meme that said "I may not go to church every Sunday but I'm still a Christian", at the time I looked down on the post because I was ushering 3 times a week at my church at the time, but now I understand.. even though the fellow who posted it has probably never actually gone to church as he still curses a lot and makes inappropriate post.
He's a friend of mine who shared his testimony with me once, that he was addicted to crack and Jesus saved him through help from a local church reach out.

Josiah said:

The DEVIL works hard, he works overtime.... all to get our focus off the Cross and on the mirror

His goal is to get us to make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible.

He is HAPPY to fit Jesus in there somehow, to praise and honor Jesus, to lavish Him will high sounding roles.... as long as our getting to heaven actually depends on ME so that Jesus is NOT the Savior.

Jesus can be the perfect teacher....He can be the Son of God..... He can be morally perfect.... He can be the divine miracle worker and the one who rose from the dead.... He can be the one who died for us.... He can be the One who opens the door to heaven for us.... He can be the one who offers heaven to us..... He can be the divine Helper without Whom no one can be saved.... yup..... the Devil is glad to shroud Him with the best, as long as He is not the SAVIOR, self is.

Sometimes, the DEVIL has to hide the hook in a lot of nice bait. And he's more than willing to do that. Even lavish his pitch with lots of Bible verses (as he even did with Jesus). You can adore and worship Jesus all you want, the Devil is fine with that, as long as He's not your SAVIOR.

Many fall for this. Many preach this.

When I hear the Devil preach this stuff, I tell him where to go. "God helps those who help themselves" "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta walk through it" "Jesus makes it possible for all to be saved but we choose to do it" and a thousand more lies - some very, very convincing, some even shrouded with Bible verses. When the Devil minimizes the Cross and maximizes the mirror.... when he calls our attention to ME and not to Christ.... when it's "Jesus did 99% of what's needed but it all depends on the 1% you do" JUST TELL HIM WHERE TO GO. And lift high the Cross.




.

Click to expand...

While I agree it's important not to lose sight of Jesus doing the business of saving and us doing little more than tagging along for the ride I think it's also dangerous to assume we do literally nothing. If we follow that path too far we end up figuring we literally do nothing and Jesus just lifts us out of the mire. If nothing else we have to repent, which is a decision on our part. When the people in Acts 3 asked what they had to do to be saved they weren't told "Nothing at all, Jesus did all the work for you". So in that regard I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Jesus opened the door but we still have to go in.

Heaven isn't an exclusive club - it's not like only some people get an invite but a lot of people decide not to show up for the party.

Lämmchen said:

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2

We do nothing. God does it all. That's why it's by grace through faith and GOD alone is the Savior.

Click to expand...

The trouble is that "Behold, I stand at the door and knock" doesn't offer any support at all to the idea we do literally nothing. What Jesus said about "when you did it not unto the least of these" the people about to be condemned clearly should have been doing something they hadn't been doing.

We don't save ourselves but the claim that we do absolutely nothing requires total predestination and creates all sorts of problems between condemnation and universalism. Jesus made it clear that some people will not be going to heaven and it's hard to claim that God is very loving if he condemns people for failing to do something they couldn't have done in the first place.

Since we've got the analogy of having a debt we can't possibly repay we might as well roll with that. If you've got a financial debt you can't possibly pay so you're at the bank trying to figure out what you can do, and someone walks in and offers to pay it off in full you still have to accept their offer. You might not have to do anything else - they write a nice big check, clear all your debts, and leave you debt-free. But if they offer to pay all your debts and you decline the offer, they walk back out again and you get to figure it out for yourself. The gift was offered by grace, you accept it in faith, but unless you accept it you don't get your debts cleared.

If salvation ultimately is because I did something, then I am the Savior of me.


I admit there is mystery here.... the "dynamic", the "how this cranks out in practice" isn't explained and isn't known. But if it's Jesus does HIS part (the part that doesn't actually save) and I do MY part (the part that actually means I've saved) then Jesus is not the Savior, is he? Who is? I have heard Christian teachers flat out say, "Jesus saves no one but He makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved." Few are so blunt, so unchristian.... but that gets conveyed in a great diversity of ways - all making the same point, Jesus is not the Savior because He doesn't save anyone - everyone simply ceases an opportunity. THIS IS WHAT THE DEVIL TRIES TO SELL US. He is willing to give Jesus ANY role but one: Savior. He is willing for us to praise Him as God, as Perfect, as Loving.... that He died for all, even that He rose from death, that's all okay with the Devil. You can even call Him the Divine Helper ("God helps those who help themselves.... God gives us all we need so we can do what we need to do to be saved") or the Divine Offerer ("Jesus offers us heaven..... and it's ours if we cease the moment and grab it from Him). Just as long as He's not the Savior.


Predestination is - in essence - correct and Biblical. But it is pure Gospel and it is mystery. I cannot be twisted upside down and inside out and into law. Yes, we are saved for one and only one reason: Jesus saves. When I enter heaven, I will say "Thank you Jesus" not "Thank me I did the right thing."

Lämmchen said:

The door verse...that's written to those who are already believers.

The check is deposited in your account because of Jesus. It's already yours whether you do anything with it or not. He paid our debt for us and we don't have to do anything else to receive it. That's God's job. We can only receive because of God's working in us...we receive by grace through faith not by our own efforts. That's it. That's how it goes. Why some are saved and others aren't is not something revealed to us but scriptures tells us that it's solely because of God that we receive salvation for eternal life. So once again...we do nothing and are passive.

Click to expand...

Except Jesus didn't say that at all. He was very clear - when you did it not unto the least of these you did it not for me. It's about doing stuff (or not doing stuff in this case). People thought they were OK, but they found out otherwise. To argue otherwise requires God to punish people for making a choice that he made on their behalf - setting people up to fail only to condemn them for all eternity for failing. That way lies either universalism, or a bizarre idea of what love looks like when it does away with free will and punishes people for someone else making the wrong decision on their behalf, or weird theologies like serpent seed. I don't see any other way that it can possibly work.

It also falls flat when tested against the idea that "to as many as received him, he gave the right to become children of God". He gave them the right to do it, he didn't drag them kicking and screaming, he didn't turn them into something against their will, he invited them in. The people received the right to become children of God. They weren't automatically made children of God.

I don't think the notion that we have to accept a free gift does anything to diminish the value of the free gift, nor the fact we do nothing to deserve the gift. It merely acknowledges that some will accept a free gift and some will reject it.

Josiah said:

If salvation ultimately is because I did something, then I am the Savior of me.


I admit there is mystery here.... the "dynamic", the "how this cranks out in practice" isn't explained and isn't known. But if it's Jesus does HIS part (the part that doesn't actually save) and I do MY part (the part that actually means I've saved) then Jesus is not the Savior, is he? Who is? I have heard Christian teachers flat out say, "Jesus saves no one but He makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved." Few are so blunt, so unchristian.... but that gets conveyed in a great diversity of ways - all making the same point, Jesus is not the Savior because He doesn't save anyone - everyone simply ceases an opportunity. THIS IS WHAT THE DEVIL TRIES TO SELL US. He is willing to give Jesus ANY role but one: Savior. He is willing for us to praise Him as God, as Perfect, as Loving.... that He died for all, even that He rose from death, that's all okay with the Devil. You can even call Him the Divine Helper ("God helps those who help themselves.... God gives us all we need so we can do what we need to do to be saved") or the Divine Offerer ("Jesus offers us heaven..... and it's ours if we cease the moment and grab it from Him). Just as long as He's not the Savior.


Predestination is - in essence - correct and Biblical. But it is pure Gospel and it is mystery. I cannot be twisted upside down and inside out and into law. Yes, we are saved for one and only one reason: Jesus saves. When I enter heaven, I will say "Thank you Jesus" not "Thank me I did the right thing."

Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think this is a helpful way of putting things. If you believe that everything is predestined then most of the Bible is little more than a waste of paper. Seriously, what's the point of giving us endless commandments, rules for living, things we should and shouldn't be doing, if we don't have any choice anyway? All it does is give the impression that some people are better than others when none of us get to decide anything at all.

If we do literally nothing, not even accept Jesus, why does Scripture talk of "all who received him", "whoever believes in him" and the like? It might as well just say "God so loved the select few that some people who he chose, apparently at random, shall not perish but too bad if you didn't make the list". When Jesus separated the sheep from the goats he was wasting his breath talking about "doing unto the least of these", he might as well have said "too bad guys, you thought you were doing the right thing but we just didn't choose you from before the dawn of time. Sorry. Better luck next time. Oh, wait.... haha, just kidding. Hope you don't mind the heat"

Using the analogy of the billionaire paying off my financial debts, imagine that Bill Gates walks in to my meeting with the bank while I'm explaining why I really can't pay my mortgage this month, or next month, or probably ever again. Oh yes, and those loans on my cars, same thing. No money. Sorry. Student loans? Yeah, right. And so on. So Bill offers to pay off all my debts, which was very kind of him. I did nothing to earn such grace and don't deserve it (especially given some of the things I've said about Microsoft over the years). But in the face of such an offer I decide to accept. Did I pay off my debts? Clearly not, Bill did. Did I do anything to deserve having my debts cleared? Nope. Nothing. Did I play any part in the process? Yes, insofar as I considered the offer and decided to accept it. Accepting the offer doesn't mean I paid the debt, nor does it in any way devalue the gift given to me by Bill. He did it all, I did nothing. But he didn't show up, strong-arm me into a meeting room with the bank manager and force handfuls of $100 bills into my hands.

Lämmchen said:

I saw this meme on Facebook and it makes sense that people believe this when they are moving away from Jesus as Savior and looking to what they do...

The meme says
It doesn't matter
how many Sundays you
sit in church or if you
think you're saved. God
sees what you do and
how you treat people.
That's what really
matters. Amen.




Nothing about Jesus. Sure we expect Christians to treat others with love. But when the "that's what really matters" means more than Jesus, the cross and forgiveness then there is something wrong. Oh and I posted this thread with the title that I did because the person who shared the meme and others who liked it stopped going to church years ago.

Click to expand...

I will say that I feel some sympathy for people who feel this way since it seems that many people who go to church are very harsh and judgmental. I would rather not be a part of a church like that again. I was in one about 13 years ago and it nearly destroyed the faith I had and took years for me to recover from the hurt that was caused.
However, I don't think that just because there are some people who attend church who are hypocrites means that I need to give up on the whole thing

jsimms435 said:

I will say that I feel some sympathy for people who feel this way since it seems that many people who go to church are very harsh and judgmental.
However, I don't think that just because there are some people who attend church who are hypocrites means that I need to give up on the whole thing

Click to expand...

Good point.


There's always an inherent danger in "church shopping." Because there is no such thing as a "good" church, every church has sinners in it. The church is a hospital for sinners not a country club for saints.

My Dad is fond of saying "there are only two kinds of people in the world - those looking for greener grass and those working to make the grass greener." It applies to church families, too.

I recall someone saying "People complain that the church is full of hypocrites.... well, there's always room for one more!"

For ME, part of my search was a church were I felt I could be helpful.... and would be welcomed in that. I didn't look for a perfect church (or pastor) because any such church wouldn't allow me to join.


THAT SAID, yes....
I care about doctrine, what is TAUGHT
I care about a family that seems directed by the Great Commandment and Great Commission, however struggling to do so
I want to avoid a church that only seems directed by survival/self-promotion or is just a social club. Even if their doctrine is sound.
BUT.... you will only meet sinners, there will be a crazy Zelda or two, the pastor will fail at times..... which just means I fit in here.

[MENTION=432]Pastor Rickert[/MENTION]

tango said:

Honestly, I don't think this is a helpful way of putting things.

Click to expand...

Sincerely, I think suggesting Jesus isn't the Savior because it's what I do that ultimately saves me actually destroys Christianity.

If you believe that everything is predestined

Click to expand...

I never said "EVERYTHING is predestined." In fact, I tend to not use that word at all (although the Bible does) because people confuse this with the pagan Greek philosophy of fate-in-everything. Lutherans (and generally all non-Calvinist Christians) tend to use the word "elect" or "election" (as the Bible more often does). It simply and only means this: Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves us, the saved have one to thank, one to receive ALL the credit - and He is Jesus." That's the doctrine of election. It says NOTHING about anything else. It says NOTHING about God making me buying a Subaru or keeping me from having a dog or meaning I didn't go to the office today. It doesn't mean God wants or causes ANYONE to end up in hell. It doesn't mean that the Elect are not to do all the things God commands them to do. It means justification is NOT a matter of Jesus doing some things, perhaps, but inadequately, insufficiently, saving no one from nothing.... we gotta do all kinds of stuff so when we get to heaven, we have self to thank. Nope. One put the Doctrine of Election this way: Soli Deo Gloria. But most put it this way: Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves.

Seriously, what's the point of giving us endless commandments, rules for living, things we should and shouldn't be doing, if we don't have any choice anyway?

Click to expand...

Because to SOME extent (and that ain't that much) you DO have a choice in all that. Even the pagan atheist does. You also can choose to whether to go to a Mexican or Italian restaurant tomorrow. But no, you cannot save yourself. If you could, you wouldn't need a Savior. To have choice in SOME things is not the same as having a choice in EVERYTHING (even spiritual ones).

All it does is give the impression that some people are better than others

Click to expand...

No, it does the opposite. It means JESUS is good.

If self saves self, then THAT means some are better than others and those who are thus are saved (no Savior needed except the one self sees in the mirror).

If we do literally nothing, not even accept Jesus, why does Scripture talk of "all who received him", "whoever believes in him" and the like? It might as well just say "God so loved the select few that some people who he chose, apparently at random, shall not perish but too bad if you didn't make the list". When Jesus separated the sheep from the goats he was wasting his breath talking about "doing unto the least of these", he might as well have said "too bad guys, you thought you were doing the right thing but we just didn't choose you from before the dawn of time. Sorry. Better luck next time. Oh, wait.... haha, just kidding. Hope you don't mind the heat"

Click to expand...

You missed this part of the post....

Josiah said:

I admit there is mystery here.... the "dynamic", the "how this cranks out in practice" isn't explained and isn't known.
/quote]


It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as one undivided teaching. Thus faith plays a part. So the Bible is correct, there is no salvation apart from my having faith. Another way to look at this is that to be alive, I must have life. But how does life come about? By the dead one doing x,y,z or by the action of God? In the Nicene Creed, we confess "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life" (It's talking about spiritual life there).

YES, the Bible calls all to faith (many times!) And the Bible says faith is the gift of God. BOTH are true. So, all are called to faith (and yes, God wills all to have faith) and faith is given by God (and not all have it). Yup. That's the biblical reality. SOOOO, how does that all 'crank out?' What is the dynamic of that? Well.... the Bible never says. But this it does: God is the giver of life (spiritual and physical).... no one causes themselves to be born (physical or spiritual).... the Savior is NOT two - Jesus (doing the ineffectual part) and YOU (doing the effectual part). Now, you can ADD something the Bible NEVER says (it actually contradict the Bible): "God wants lots to fry in hell and so doesn't give them faith." Logical, maybe, but horribly unchristian and unbiblical. OR you could ADD something the Bible NEVER says (it actually flat out contradicts it): "Everyone is saved because God gives faith to everyone." Or you could ADD something the Bible NEVER says (it actually boldly contradicts it): "Jesus saves no one but gives the opportunity to be saved to all who achieve it." But I choose to stick with what the Bible says: Jesus is the Savior. Jesus does the saving. When you get to heaven, don't pat self on the back - thank Jesus. It's called the Doctrine of Election.

Click to expand...

... and you missed this part...

Josiah said:

But if it's Jesus does HIS part (the part that doesn't actually save) and I do MY part (the part that actually means I've saved) then Jesus is not the Savior, is he? Who is? I have heard Christian teachers flat out say, "Jesus saves no one but He makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved." Few are so blunt, so unchristian.... but that gets conveyed in a great diversity of ways - all making the same point, Jesus is not the Savior because He doesn't save anyone - everyone simply ceases an opportunity. THIS IS WHAT THE DEVIL TRIES TO SELL US. He is willing to give Jesus ANY role but one: Savior. He is willing for us to praise Him as God, as Perfect, as Loving.... that He died for all, even that He rose from death, that's all okay with the Devil. You can even call Him the Divine Helper ("God helps those who help themselves.... God gives us all we need so we can do what we need to do to be saved") or the Divine Offerer ("Jesus offers us heaven..... and it's ours if we cease the moment and grab it from Him). Just as long as He's not the Savior

.

Click to expand...

Using the analogy of the billionaire paying off my financial debts, imagine that Bill Gates walks in to my meeting with the bank while I'm explaining why I really can't pay my mortgage this month, or next month, or probably ever again. Oh yes, and those loans on my cars, same thing. No money. Sorry. Student loans? Yeah, right. And so on. So Bill offers to pay off all my debts, which was very kind of him. I did nothing to earn such grace and don't deserve it (especially given some of the things I've said about Microsoft over the years). But in the face of such an offer I decide to accept. Did I pay off my debts? Clearly not, Bill did.

Click to expand...

Why are your loans paid off? Because YOU did.....

He made it POSSIBLE for you to be debt free...... but the reason you are debt free is because of what you did.

Some put your view this way: Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta walk through it by what YOU DO. So those in heaven got there because they DID....

Look up Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism.

But he didn't show up, strong-arm me into a meeting room with the bank manager and force handfuls of $100 bills into my hands.

Click to expand...

I'd change the illustration to this: ".... and Bill gates transferred the money into my account so that I am debt free." Then why are you debt free? Because of Bill.


Years ago, I had an internet friend who was a Hindu. He mentioned to me there is a sect in Hinduism (there are zillions of them!) that believes that God is merciful. But here's how HE (a Hindu well aquainted with Christianity) put the huge difference: "In the Hindu from, God is like a mother monkey - to calls here baby to cling to her while she runs from deadly danger, whereas in Christianity, God is like a mother cat who picks up her kitten and carries her to safety." Ahha. In all other religions, God plays a role - helper, teacher, inspiration, offerer, possibility-maker - the divine is always seen as absolutely essential. But no other religion has a SAVIOR because self does that, self accomplishes that (even if it take a million lifetimes) by ceasing what is offered and provided.


Look... no one knows the dynamics, the "how", of salvation. It's why it's called MYSTERY. But this we DO know: Jesus is the SAVIOR, Jesus saves. He is not just a Hindu helper or provider or teacher or possibility maker or door opener. Now, once alive....once saved.... we are called to MUCH - to love as God does, to be morally perfect as God is, to forgive as God does, etc. But this is not how we GAIN life or salvation or the Holy Spirit- it's what those who have are called to thus do.


Here's a link for further investigation, http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/07/is_faith_the_gift_of_god_what.php It's very technical but helpful, and there is a good series of comments that follow.




Blessings


Josiah




.