Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

hobie said:

Matthew 23:28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

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Nice verse that has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread or with justification.

And remember, NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one (including you) - although some might APPEAR so to man. If you say you have no sin, you are a FOOL and a liar the Bible states. And if you sin, you aren't obedient.



We are saved by grace (a pure GIFT - unearned, undeserved, unmerited by the receivers) because of Christ (who is THE one and only, all sufficient SAVIOR - not you, not me, not now, not ever, not 100%, not 0.000000001%) which we receive via the divine gift of faith (trust, reliance). Faith is not a meaningless chant but is trusting and relying - looking to the Cross rather than to the mirror (as you keep saying we should do).


Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.


Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)



A blessed Advent to all.



- Josiah





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Lämmchen said:

We have faith because God gives it to us. When we do something because we have faith, that is not what gives us salvation. As Josiah keeps saying you are confusing Justification with how a Christian lives his life. It's not the same thing.

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Got a chuckle from that! No, I am not confused in the least. :lol:

I've actually been teaching on the Christian life for several years now in churches. reach: :bible:

What so many seem to misunderstand is what "salvation" is, as well as what the "Gospel" is, according to Scripture. That's why the Lord lead me to start my website. There are those with "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

Michael said:

There are those with "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

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IMO, it's Satan who says we are saved by our obedience.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

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When you achieve that, let us know (also your wife). Then, according to you, you will be saved. But you won't need Jesus or mercy or grace or forgiveness. ODD, this verse SHOULD condemn you and show you that you CANNOT achieve justification by your obedience but instead....

Josiah said:

IMO, it's Satan who says we are saved by our obedience.

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Indeed, that is your opinion. But it is not Scripture.

"And having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:9

Can we deny this Truth? And no, 'accepting Him' is not 'obeying Him', as there is no commandment in the Word to 'accept Jesus.' We are to obey all the commands of God given through Christ & His Apostles.


Honestly, much emotion and humanism has crept into modern preaching today, and a veil remains over most of the church.

May we be among those who truly "repent", "present our bodies a living sacrifice", "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus" that, as Jesus said, not I, we may be "worthy of Him."

Amen.

Michael said:

Indeed, that is your opinion. But it is not Scripture.

"And having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:9

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Hebrews is written to the SAVED, not the dead who need to be saved.

You gave the definition of obedience. Matthew 5:48. Are you perfect as God is perfect? If not, then you aren't obeying him - and according to you, you aren't saved. Nor was SAINT Paul since he wrote that he was the "chief of sinners" and that "if we say we have no sin, we fool ourselves and we lie."

You are simply blending and confusing Law and Gospel, justification with sanctification - all to make Jesus as small and irrlevant as possible, you as big and important and wonderful as possible. IMO, that comes from Satan, not God.

I wonder why Paul called himself the chief of sinners being an apostle and such, you would think he would be completely Holy by the time he said such a thing :/

Point being we can appear to be righteous to others but a humble servant will admit that he isn't perfect but is still justified.

Obedience has more to do with knowing right from wrong and feeling conviction each time you do sin (which you will).. When I was an unbeliever I would do and say things that would hurt others and set bad examples for others and not give a toot about it, now as a believer I have the gift of discernment and correction, I have a Father who forgives me and corrects me with full authority that comes from Heaven, that's justification, that's the walk of obedience and maturity through Christ and left on my own accord I am filthy and toxic.

Josiah said:

Hebrews is written to the SAVED, not the dead who need to be saved.

You gave the definition of obedience. Matthew 5:48. Are you perfect as God is perfect? If not, then you aren't obeying him - and according to you, you aren't saved. Nor was SAINT Paul since he wrote that he was the "chief of sinners" and that "if we say we have no sin, we fool ourselves and we lie."

You are simply blending and confusing Law and Gospel, justification with sanctification - all to make Jesus as small and irrlevant as possible, you as big and important and wonderful as possible. IMO, that comes from Satan, not God.

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You've confused me with another perhaps. That quote which includes Matt 5:48 is not from me. Guarantee you won't find me defining "obedience" like that.

And again, from what I've seen some others share in this forum, I know the difference between the Law of Moses and the Gospel far better than most. Sorry to be so blunt, but the unfounded accusations are getting old. Especially since I've been teaching on this for many years now in churches, Bible Studies, Retreats and home fellowships. And the One who commissioned me to teach is the same One who ordained the Apostles.

Truth is, the salvation we have now is NOT the end. Only those who "obey" will receive that "eternal salvation." That is fairly clear from the great bulk of the New Testament. I am not at all confused, but rather speaking to many who indeed have confused our "being saved" from bondage to sin with that "eternal salvation" that will come to those who "obey", "repent" and "walk worthy."

It's okay to learn something new, friend. The message that the Lord God has given me to teach, which is the same as Jesus, the Prophets and Apostles taught, is for the Elect of God. This message needs to exclude none of the verses ignored by so many who cling to the 'Jesus did it all, and there is nothing I can do to please God other than accept Christ' doctrine that is popular today.

All the verses thrown at me in attempt to refute what I present actually support and confirm what the Lord has directed me to share, when you read them in context. Context is a key understanding the Scripture. The most important key, of course, is the Holy Spirit, whom "God gives to those who obey Him." Man, again we find the need for "obedience." For any who spend time in the Scripture for themselves, we find it is impossible to get away from "obedience" and "repentance". those vital aspects of our salvation.

Even Jesus understood this!

"why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?" - Luke 6:46

"You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:14

"unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” - Luke 13:3

And no, John 3:16 does not cancel out or override what Jesus said here in these verses, or many other places in the Gospels, no matter what your priest or pastor tries to tell you.

Without a walk "worthy" of Him, a "presenting of our bodies a living sacrifice", "denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily and following Jesus" the Way of the Cross, we will not enter into that "eternal salvation" that comes ONLY to those who "obey Him."

When this undeniable, irrefutable Truth is accepted and begun to be lived out, and the traditions of man and wishful thinking cast aside... only then can the great plan and purpose of God for His creation begin to be understood.

Amen.



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Michael said:

Truth is, the salvation we have now ....

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So, we HAVE salvation!!!!! Because of CHRIST'S obedience, works and love.... because of CHRIST'S mercy and grace. I agree. I'm sure Lamm and Albion agree. too. In terms of this thread. we're done.


Why then the contradiction that we only have salvation IF we obey God... that salvation is ours because of OUR obedience, OUR works?


I don't deny that the SAVED are called to be as perfect as God is perfect, as holy as God is holy, as loving as Christ is loving, as forgiving as God is forgiving; that we are to make disciples of everyone, that we are to be like Christ (and indeed God). I just don't agree that THAT is how salvation comes to us. And of course, ALL THAT is irrelevant to this thread since as you know, as we all know, as everyone knows, this thread is npt about what the SAVED should or should not do, it's about BECOMING saved, HAVING salvation. Your attempt to make that depend on OUR obedience, your attempt to make it all about the one we see in the mirror, all that simply serves to destroy Christianity, denounce the Gospel and make Christ anything BUT the Savior.

"why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’...

"You are My friends....

"unless you repent...

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Who is the "you?" The dead, unregenerate, lifeless, Spirit-less, atheistic enemies of God who NEED salvation? Or the SAVED?

Are these verses Law or Gospel? Are they about the issue here, how one becomes saved, or are you simply misapplying Scriptures to a different subject in order to destroy the Gospel, to make Christ not the Savior, to echo Satan's plea that we look not to the Cross but to the mirror, his lie that the Savior is not Christ but each self?






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Josiah said:

So, we HAVE salvation!!!!! Because of CHRIST'S obedience, works and love.... because of CHRIST'S mercy and grace. I agree. I'm sure Lamm and Albion agree. too. In terms of this thread. we're done.


Why then the contradiction that we only have salvation IF we obey God... that salvation is ours because of OUR obedience, OUR works?


I don't deny that the SAVED are called to be as perfect as God is perfect, as holy as God is holy, as loving as Christ is loving, as forgiving as God is forgiving; that we are to make disciples of everyone, that we are to be like Christ (and indeed God). I just don't agree that THAT is how salvation comes to us. And of course, ALL THAT is irrelevant to this thread since as you know, as we all know, as everyone knows, this thread is npt about what the SAVED should or should not do, it's about BECOMING saved, HAVING salvation. Your attempt to make that depend on OUR obedience, your attempt to make it all about the one we see in the mirror, all that simply serves to destroy Christianity, denounce the Gospel and make Christ anything BUT the Savior.

"why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?" - Luke 6:46

"You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:14

"unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” - Luke 13:3


Who is the "you?" The dead, unregenerate, lifeless, Spirit-less, atheistic enemies of God who NEED salvation? Or the SAVED?

Are these verses Law or Gospel? Are they about the issue here, how one becomes saved, or are you simply misapplying Scriptures to a different subject in order to destroy the Gospel, to make Christ not the Savior, to echo Satan's plea that we look not to the Cross but to the mirror, his lie that the Savior is not Christ but each self?

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Oh yes! If you would ever just read what I actually say, and watch the teachings the Lord has given me, you'd know that I firmly believe and preach that we are saved from bondage by what Jesus alone accomplished by His own obedience to God. (And if you quote me here, please use the entire post. For this is what happens often to Paul's writings; where a sentence is plucked out of context and the whole intent is lost.)

Those verses I shared above from the very mouth of Jesus, ARE Gospel. Without the main message of Jesus teaching, which is “stop sinning” (Repent), we don’t have the full Gospel, and we are preaching a false gospel and giving folk a false idea of who Jesus and God really are.

For the umpteenth time, what I most often address is the "eternal salvation" that will be granted those who "obey Him." We’re talking way past “being saved” here, which is the very first step of our Journey.

The salvation that we have now means that we no longer HAVE to sin. That bond has been broken by Jesus shed blood on the Cross. Now if a "saved" person continues in sin, it is either they need further deliverance, which God will provide if we are "striving against sin to the shedding of our own blood"; or it is because we choose to knowingly sin, falsely believing that Jesus will forgive us anyway. Paul makes it very clear that to continue to sin after our being set free from the bondage of sin, is to not receive the fullness of salvation and the promises of God to those who “walk worthy.”

Seriously, whatever preachers you are listening too, who ad nauseum, and without understanding, recite ‘Law and Gospel are opposites’, you’d be much better off fleeing from, for they are false ministers touting a self-serving gospel that is foreign to Scripture, that will leave many wanting in that Day.

Indeed the three verses I quoted from Jesus above are True. The first two are directed at those who have been “saved”, telling them that unless they walk in obedience, they will fall short of “eternal salvation” and may not even be permitted to enter the Kingdom. So, here, as in most of the New Testament, just being “saved” does not assure us of the promises of God. I know many claim that from the pulpits, but it is not true. Rather, being “saved” from bondage to sin is an opportunity to attain to the Resurrection of Life, if we “obey” and “walk worthy” as Jesus and the Apostles taught. (Again, this is Christianity 101)

Now the third verse from Luke 13:3 (& Luke 13:5), is directed at people who you could say were “unsaved”, but we find Jesus telling them that without True Repentance – a “turning away from sin” – they will perish. This is an eternal Kingdom Principle. So Jesus, as He did from the very first words of His ministry, put requirements on receiving the promises of God, i.e. “Repent, believe and be baptized.” When we include His requirement to "endure til the end" we gain a greater understanding of what it really means to be "saved" eternally. And yes, obedience is absolutely a condition for obtaining "eternal salvation." The Bible says, I believe it, that settles it.

So many today seem to believe, and the blame falls squarely on the motivational speakers and con men behind most pulpits, that the “Gospel” is ‘accept Jesus and what He did for you, and you get heaven when you die regardless of how you lived your life; or don’t accept Him and you get hell, which everyone deserves.’

That is NOT the Gospel. And being “saved” does NOT mean that you are now eternally forgiven, or even that you have eternal Life. Many will pluck a single verse or two out or context in attempt to prove that’s what is means, but even a passing glance at Scripture shows us that theory does not hold water. If one needs to ignore or dismiss literally hundreds of passages in the Bible to believe a particular “gospel” or doctrine of salvation, then they seriously need to reconsider their position, because they have fixed their eyes on a “golden calf” that will leave them greatly disappointed when the Lord really does call them to follow Jesus His Way.

I encounter many who disagree; just as did the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus Himself find that most did not agree with them. But, again, as the Apostles stated, “I must obey God rather than man.” His Word and opinion of me is all that matters.

In the end, I know I am right in this area. The Word of God confirms it nearly every time I open the Bible. And these interactions we have discussing Kingdom Truth only further affirm my faith, hope and trust in the Lord Jesus and what His God and Father is doing to restore Creation.

I appreciate the times I have to fellowship with, encourage and counsel the saints here on CH as well as in ministry in the denomination where God has placed me at the present time. Jesus is bringing me closer to the Father as I surrender to Him and walk on the Path that He has ordained. Amen.

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus. May His wisdom be your portion today.