Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

hobie · Dec 6, 2019

Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
Matthew 19:16-17
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
Matthew 19:20-22
"20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.

Lamb · Dec 6, 2019

Obedience was a condition...and it was met by the Messiah who lived the perfectly obedient life none of us ever could and went to the cross willingly as payment for the debt of our sins, Him being the perfect lamb for the sacrifice that was needed. As believers we are declared NOT GUILTY of our sins which means because of Christ our obedience that was required has been met through Him. In our baptisms we are clothed in Him and His righteousness.

Particular · Dec 6, 2019

The Apostle Paul points out that works are not the basis by which a person retains salvation. He states that even if all a Christians works were burned in the fire, yet the Christian would escape the flames.

The passage below suggests that our role and station in heaven may be determined by our faith, expressed, here on earth, but our status as a Christian is secured by Christ Jesus, not by our works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-17,21-23 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Josiah · Dec 6, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Obedience was a condition...and it was met by the Messiah who lived the perfectly obedient life none of us ever could and went to the cross willingly as payment for the debt of our sins, Him being the perfect lamb for the sacrifice that was needed. As believers we are declared NOT GUILTY of our sins which means because of Christ our obedience that was required has been met through Him. In our baptisms we are clothed in Him and His righteousness.

Exactly!

Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.

Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.

The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.

You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.

WHO is the SAVIOR?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)

A blessed Advent to all.

- Josiah

hobie · Dec 6, 2019

Josiah said:
Exactly!

Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.

Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.

The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.

You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.

WHO is the SAVIOR?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)

A blessed Advent to all.

- Josiah

And yet if we remain just "talking" about Jesus and dont do the close walk with Jesus, obeying His commandments, then what? Christ makes clear that at the end, that those who claim they have Christ and yet "heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not," will be surprised.

Matthew 7:22-27
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Lamb · Dec 6, 2019

hobie said:
And yet if we remain just "talking" about Jesus and dont do the close walk with Jesus, obeying His commandments, then what? Christ makes clear that at the end, that those who claim they have Christ and yet "heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not," will be surprised.

What happens to those things we haven't done as we should...aren't they considered sins? Didn't Jesus die on the cross to atone for sin? So then what? Don't we repent and ask for forgiveness? Doesn't God forgive?

Particular · Dec 6, 2019

hobie said:
And yet if we remain just "talking" about Jesus and dont do the close walk with Jesus, obeying His commandments, then what? Christ makes clear that at the end, that those who claim they have Christ and yet "heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not," will be surprised.

Matthew 7:22-27
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Do you think this parable is about salvation?

Michael · Dec 6, 2019

Obedience is necessary

hobie said:
Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Indeed it is a vital necessary aspect of "eternal salvation", and a absolute condition for that "royal priesthood" who will be "clothed with salvation" which they will minister to the nations in that Day.

Let's look at a passage directly from Scripture that rarely will you hear even mentioned from the pulpits today, as it throws a wrench into most current popular theology -

"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." - Heb 5:5-14

So many shy away from this passage, as well as much of the rest of Hebrews, and also 1Cor 10 and Revelation chapters 2 & 3, as the Truth contained in these is in direct contradiction to many denominations Statements of Faith.

For here in Hebrews we find that Jesus "became" something that He had not been before, and that He "feared" God.

We also read that the Man Jesus, Himself, had to "learn obedience" and be "perfected." Showing that there is a lot missing from today's preaching concerning Who the Christ is, and how He came to be. I touched a bit on this in our look here on the CH in the thread - https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?8297-The-GREATEST-GIFT-(Inheritance-of-Creation)

And we see that "eternal salvation" is for those who "obey Him." And remember this is talking to "saved" people, not to the "unbeliever." We need to realize, as Paul too clearly taught, we're not there yet. The salvation we have received now is the beginning of our Journey, not the end. If we are to inherit creation as a "co-heir" with Christ, and receive the promises in Rev 2 & 3 given only to those who "overcome", then we must be tested and proven "worthy." Some reading this are shaking their heads right now, mostly because they have never heard this Truth preached from their "pastor" or "priest." But the Word cannot be broken. This passage from Hebrews is just as True as John 3:16, and the Scripture does not contradict in any way. Both are True, and neither cancels out or overrides the over.

I realize, and am reminded often by some good brothers in the Lord, that this Truth is not for all "saved" people. The Spirit has given to some (by God's own choosing, for His purpose) the understanding of the Priesthood, the Two Resurrections and the Inheritance that will be granted those who were proven "faithful" by their "obedience" in this Life. And no, this has nothing to do with the "Law of Moses." Honestly, the great bulk of preachers today have not been able to grasp that there is an "obedience" to His commands that God requires of those who have been called to follow Christ, and it is NOT the rules and regulations of the Mosaic Covenant that the Pharisees kept perfectly while lacking the True righteousness that God demands. Truly, our righteousness, proven by our obedience and conduct, must be greater. As Jesus said, "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom." (Matt 5:20)

As Jesus said to His closest disciples, not to the crowds or even the many that followed Him, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:14

And THAT statement from Jesus stands in direct opposition to many popular "Christian" songs today. But we won't go into that here. May the passage from Hebrews 5 alone give you pause and cause you to meditate on God's Word and seek His understanding. And it's okay to not understand. God will reveal the Truth in His time if it is His will. What is not okay is to bash those who share that Word and who truly have insight regarding the call to the Priesthood. And I'll leave it at that for now.

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus.

Lamb · Dec 7, 2019

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Josiah · Dec 7, 2019

hobie said:
Josiah said:

Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.

Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.

The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.

You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.

WHO is the SAVIOR?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)

A blessed Advent to all.

.

Click to expand...

And yet if we remain just "talking" about Jesus and dont do the close walk with Jesus, obeying His commandments, then what?

Who is "we?"

If "we" are the unsaved, the dead, those who do not have the divine gifts of spiritual life - faith in Christ as Savior - the Holy Spirit, then there is nothing they can do (dead folks can't do a whole lot), and they won't walk with Jesus (even if they could) and of course, no one can keep His commandments (check out Matthew 5:48 and look in the mirror).

If "we" is Christians, then you are in the wrong thread. This thread is not about what the SAVED; should do, it's about BEING saved. Notice the title, it's about SALVATION and asked if OUR works are the cause of such (meaning Jesus is a sick joke, Jesus doesn't actually save anyone, HIS obedience has nothing to do with our entering heaven but rather OUR obedience).

Read the post you quoted.

Matthew 7:22-27
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Irrelevant to the topic. Nothing here about salvation/justification. It seems you are just confusing Law and Gospel.... and worse, trying to substitute the Law for the Gospel - all the eliminate Jesus as the Savior and make it all conditional on what dead, atheist, enemies of God DO to save self.

Read the post you quoted.

A blessed Advent to all.

- Josiah

.

hobie · Dec 10, 2019

Lämmchen said:
What happens to those things we haven't done as we should...aren't they considered sins? Didn't Jesus die on the cross to atone for sin? So then what? Don't we repent and ask for forgiveness? Doesn't God forgive?

The answer to the lawyer in the story of the Good Samaritan comes to mind....

Luke 10:25-37 King James Version (KJV)
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Michael · Dec 10, 2019

Obedience is Key

Lämmchen said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:9

When we take in the whole Scripture we get a far better picture of what God has done in Christ, and the requirements for those who will inherit the promises of Rev 2 & 3.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:13-14

Yea and Amen.

.

Andrew · Dec 10, 2019

I recommend the book "Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs" by David Bercot for anyone who's interested in what a non denom bias Christian walk was like, very very simplistic!

hobie · Dec 11, 2019

Michael said:
"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:9

When we take in the whole Scripture we get a far better picture of what God has done in Christ, and the requirements for those who will inherit the promises of Rev 2 & 3.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:13-14

Yea and Amen.

.

Wow, Gods Word has the answers, we just have to let the Holy Spirit lead us.

Lamb · Dec 11, 2019

hobie said:
Wow, Gods Word has the answers, we just have to let the Holy Spirit lead us.

False prophets claim that the Holy Spirit told them their lies.

If the person doesn't point to Jesus and the forgiveness of sins for eternal life then you know he's preaching a false gospel.

hobie · Dec 11, 2019

Lämmchen said:
False prophets claim that the Holy Spirit told them their lies.

If the person doesn't point to Jesus and the forgiveness of sins for eternal life then you know he's preaching a false gospel.

How would you read this verse....
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Lamb · Dec 11, 2019

hobie said:
How would you read this verse....
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We obey by believing in Jesus. (By grace through faith for salvation). It's God's work in us to give us faith which is why salvation is 100% God's work.

If YOU think salvation is something YOU DO then tell me the percentage that is yours and the percentage that is God's? I mean, if it's YOUR work to do then Jesus is not 100% your savior and you're part savior for yourself.

hobie · Dec 11, 2019

Lämmchen said:
We obey by believing in Jesus. (By grace through faith for salvation)

He wrote the Commandments with His own finger, so we have what it means to obey. We can see that we by nature are all servants of sin and Satan, and that as soon as we submit to Christ, we become loosed from Satan’s power, free to obey our Master "unto righteousness".

Lamb · Dec 11, 2019

hobie said:
He wrote the Commandments with His own finger, so we have what it means to obey. We can see that we by nature are all servants of sin and Satan, and that as soon as we submit to Christ, we become loosed from Satan’s power, free to obey our Master "unto righteousness".

How are you doing with that obeying the Commandments...have you even been able to fully obey the first one? If you say you have no sin you deceive yourself.

You cannot fully obey the Commandment as God requires. ONLY JESUS has done that. That's why we trust in His obedience for our salvation. We are clothed in Him in our baptism which means that God sees us the same as He sees His Son, with whom He is well pleased. Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

If you are striving to do something for your salvation then you aren't trusting in the one who can actually do it for you...Jesus the Savior.

Michael · Dec 11, 2019

hobie said:
He wrote the Commandments with His own finger, so we have what it means to obey. We can see that we by nature are all servants of sin and Satan, and that as soon as we submit to Christ, we become loosed from Satan’s power, free to obey our Master "unto righteousness".

Amen! Very good. You brought up Romans 6 earlier. Oh that "Christians" would read and understand that portion of Scripture.

We do well to remember that not a single verse in the New Testament letters is written to the "unsaved." ALL the warnings and ALL the promises are to those who have already been "saved" and "cleansed from their past sins."

Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

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God's Lil Lamb

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simul justus et peccator

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simul justus et peccator

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Matt 18:15

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