Faith in self does not justify

popsthebuilder · Oct 31, 2019

Andrew said:
Right, that's called conviction, all Christians have that (or should), it's a thorn in the flesh, you should always feel conviction when you sin -because with Christ in you and by the Holy Spirit -you repent (look inwards, to Him) when you feel conviction! That's the feeling we should receive as Christians instead of the feeling of self gratitude for doing something "good".
Many non believers do greater things than I, it's not a competition (showmanship) of who can be greater, but it's rest and fulfilment and comfort in knowing that the Holy Spirit is sealed in your heart and like a seed it grows and you mature in your walk with God in His grace, it's a free gift NOT earned by merits.
Jesus Christ did not come to place a heavy yoke on you but a light yoke, when you take up your cross and follow Him you are free from the bondage of sin and of death and are redeemed by His Work on the cross.
Sin shall no longer have dominion over you, you are free from it's curse and from the devils lie "you can become like God knowing good and evil for yourselves"
Indeed mankind is cursed with the ignorant belief that we can independently decide righteously what 'good' is and what 'bad' is.
Science cannot measure morality, yet they observe and conclude that all animal species remain in a perpetual moral state of perfect harmony within the group of that species... this means that humans are unpredictable and chaotic, there is no such thing as "good and evil", science believes in free will but can not measure morality (good and evil)

Let the Spirit convict you so you stay humble to the Lord, you can call it your conscious but understand that it's not the conscious of the old Adam anymore but of a new creation through Christ

Repentance isn't shame. The shame is what shows the need for repentance.

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popsthebuilder · Nov 3, 2019

zecryphon_nomdiv said:
You are looking to what a person does and deciding if they are justified or not.

"Okay. Let me put it like this;

If GOD has justified the believer then that believer will rejoice at the chance to do according to HIS Word, and if they do not then they are not justified."

We know a person is justified by what they confess, not what they do.

Romans 10:6-13 (NASB)

6) But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to*bring Christ up from the dead).” 8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11) For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13) for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You said "
We know a person is justified by what they confess, not what they do."

But scripture expressly stated the opposite. That is that one who claims one thing yet exudes another is a hypocrite; and also that we know them by their works.

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ImaginaryDay2 · Nov 3, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Maybe this thread needs to exam the term "justify"?

This would be interesting in context of the OP - "But he wanted to justify himself..." and how 'justify' is used there. Is it self-justification (i.e. "works") or 'justify' in another sense? I don't have the time right now, but I'll look at this a bit later. If anyone wants to chime in, though...

zecryphon_nomdiv · Nov 3, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
You said "
We know a person is justified by what they confess, not what they do."

But scripture expressly stated the opposite. That is that one who claims one thing yet exudes another is a hypocrite; and also that we know them by their works.

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Really? Because verses 9-11 and the rest of what I quoted supports what I said. We know a person is saved by what they confess. For verses 9-11 says:

9*If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.*

10*For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.*

11*As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Nothing here says we are justified by our works. These passages deal with what we confess, not what we do.

Michael · Nov 3, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
Repentance isn't shame. The shame is what shows the need for repentance.

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Amen. So many confuse sorrow or regret with Biblical Repentance, which is proven only by a change of behavior.

"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance... 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter." - 2Cor 7:9-11

.

popsthebuilder · Nov 3, 2019

zecryphon_nomdiv said:
Really? Because verses 9-11 and the rest of what I quoted supports what I said. We know a person is saved by what they confess. For verses 9-11 says:

9*If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.*

10*For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.*

11*As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Nothing here says we are justified by our works. These passages deal with what we confess, not what we do.

You gotta be kidding. First off; if you would care to read without preconceived bias; you would find that the verses you posited refer to belief, and not lip service or hypocrisy. Secondly; if one actually believes a thing then they will do according to that genuine belief within their life.

Faith is effectual.

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Albion · Nov 3, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
You gotta be kidding. First off; if you would care to read without preconceived bias; you would find that the verses you posited refer to belief, and not lip service or hypocrisy. Secondly; if one actually believes a thing then they will do according to that genuine belief within their life.

Faith is effectual.

Hmm. You missed the point of that post and misunderstood the Bible verses...all in one.

popsthebuilder · Nov 3, 2019

Albion said:
Hmm. You missed the point of that post and misunderstood the Bible verses...all in one.

Hmmm.....thanks for your opinion my friend, but I would much prefer some support of your claim. If one actually believes then they won't only confess said belief as the hypocrite, but will do much more than simply confess with their mouth.

Do you think the "priest" who stepped over the injured, robbed man was found pleasing to our Lord because he seemed outwardly to be a priest? Or do you think the good person from the good of his heart, given by GOD, who took the man and tended to him, not looking for reward of man, or doing for the sight of man, was pleasing to GOD? Which one actually believed in your sight?

What about the man who haughtily thanked GOD aloud that he was better than the one with the contrite heart? Was he saved because he thought so? Was he better than the one who knew well his low estate? Or was the man desirous of repentance found this have a right heart within him?

I look forward to your sound rebuttal.

peace

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zecryphon_nomdiv · Nov 3, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
You gotta be kidding. First off; if you would care to read without preconceived bias; you would find that the verses you posited refer to belief, and not lip service or hypocrisy. Secondly; if one actually believes a thing then they will do according to that genuine belief within their life.

Faith is effectual.

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Where did I say the verses I quoted referred to lip service or hypocrisy? That's your pre-conceived bias. Read what I posted without your bias and see if you learn something new. Faith is a gift from God. The Scriptures I posted show that what we confess shows that we are saved. Our works flow from our faith, which is a gift. You can not justify yourself by your works.

Don't forget that non-believers can do works that people like you will consider good. Doing those works doesn't mean they're saved. Now, if those people confess that Jesus is Lord and that He has been raised from the dead then we know that they are a fellow believer.

Michael · Nov 3, 2019

As we know from the Scripture, there is no such thing as an abstract faith.

Found this on a Lutheran Church site, and although I am not of that particular denomination, I know many on this forum are. And I agree with what the Lutheran Pastor says here -

http://www.nl4u.org/blog/posts/10118/Active-Faith

(don't worry... it's not a link to my website! :Nooo

Truly, Biblically, our "faith" is only proven by our works.

.

Albion · Nov 3, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
Hmmm.....thanks for your opinion my friend, but I would much prefer some support of your claim.

Well, I appreciate that, but you know that sometimes simply a word of caution or a "heads up" is sufficient. Besides, in this case, there was more than one mistake, so that would take some time to explain. People don't always appreciate such a reply.

If one actually believes then they won't only confess said belief as the hypocrite, but will do much more than simply confess with their mouth.

Absolutely, but Faith--if genuine--necessarily produces good works. It is not possible to have a real Faith and disregard everything that you know God wants of us.

Do you think the "priest" who stepped over the injured, robbed man was found pleasing to our Lord because he seemed outwardly to be a priest?

No.

Or do you think the good person from the good of his heart, given by GOD, who took the man and tended to him, not looking for reward of man, or doing for the sight of man, was pleasing to GOD? Which one actually believed in your sight?

There is a difference between doing good things and doing them from Faith. You cannot say that a non-believer who is kindly is therefore redeemed even though he has no idea who God is. We all know atheists, for example, who are really nice and generous people, but that is not what merits salvation for anyone.

popsthebuilder · Nov 3, 2019

Albion said:
Well, I appreciate that, but you know that sometimes simply a word of caution or a "heads up" is sufficient. Besides, in this case, there was more than one mistake, so that would take some time to explain. People don't always appreciate such a reply.

Absolutely, but Faith--if genuine--necessarily produces good works. It is not possible to have a real Faith and disregard everything that you know God wants of us.

No.

There is a difference between doing good things and doing them from Faith. You cannot say that a non-believer who is kindly is therefore redeemed even though he has no idea who God is. We all know atheists, for example, who are really nice and generous people, but that is not what merits salvation for anyone.

So you think if an atheist does good that it will not be weighed in his favor in the sight of GOD!? i think all will be judged according to their works.

You think GOD shows favoritism towards a Christian over an atheist? GOD says none is with excuse and that given much will be called to answer for much; and even that one might die for a good man.

An atheist is not synonymous with an unbeliever scripturally to me. An unbeliever is one who has heard and knowingly chosen to turn from that which they know is good; namely Christ and the teachings and directing there of.

You inadvertently ate promoting an unjust God who deals in favoritism; all while claiming I am wrong on multiple points without evidence.

Do me a solid and at least list these multiple points.

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JPPT1974 · Nov 4, 2019

Only faith is in the Lord. When we put faith in ourselves and fail. But in the Lord He lets us thrive. In His time and way!

Lamb · Nov 4, 2019

This thread is not about works that follow our receiving faith in the Savior. Could we please get back to the topic of justifiy? Who would like to give some definitions of justify?

popsthebuilder · Nov 4, 2019

Lämmchen said:
This thread is not about works that follow our receiving faith in the Savior. Could we please get back to the topic of justifiy? Who would like to give some definitions of justify?

No one whatsoever can justify self. GOD is the giver of all potential and life. All existence is hinged on HIS will. Nothing is of self apart from HIM.

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Albion · Nov 4, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
So you think if an atheist does good that it will not be weighed in his favor in the sight of GOD!?

That's right. The acts may be good in themselves but there is no "weight" accruing to the unbeliever since he is not acceptable to God.

i think all will be judged according to their works.

And so the believer who does good will be rewarded while the unbeliever will remain lost in his sins even if he did some things that in themselves would have been well received by God.

You think GOD shows favoritism towards a Christian over an atheist?

Of course. Not to conclude that would require throwing out the Bible, which is essential to the Christian faith.

An atheist is not synonymous with an unbeliever scripturally to me.

There is a difference, but none of either group know the true God, and that's what matters.

You inadvertently ate promoting an unjust God who deals in favoritism; all while claiming I am wrong on multiple points without evidence.

I am "promoting" a God who, being God, does not march to your orders or have to meet your definition of what is Godly. Anyway, my answers to questions and comments like these is simply a reflection of what the Bible teaches, not something I have puzzled over in my own head before deciding on the definition that appeals to me the most.

popsthebuilder · Nov 4, 2019

Albion said:
That's right. The acts may be good in themselves but there is no "weight" accruing to the unbeliever since he is not acceptable to God.

And so the believer who does good will be rewarded while the unbeliever will remain lost in his sins even if he did some things that in themselves would have been well received by God.

Of course. Not to conclude that would require throwing out the Bible, which is essential to the Christian faith.

There is a difference, but none of either group know the true God, and that's what matters.

I am "promoting" a God who, being God, does not march to your orders or have to meet your definition of what is Godly. Anyway, my answers to questions and comments like these is simply a reflection of what the Bible teaches, not something I have puzzled over in my own head before deciding on the definition that appeals to me the most.

I could say the exact same thing to you.

What definition are you claiming I've changed.

Again; the Bible describes the unbeliever and it isn't synonymous with one who never knew GOD.

Scripture also tells us exactly what metric all will be judged according to and that metric is works.

To conclude according to these things takes a lack of indoctrination by men and a lack of preconceived bias. I can underhandedly insult you all day too; bit that isn't what we as believers are called to do. I understand that you don't believe our works matter, and that for that very reason you choose to accuse still further with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

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Lamb · Nov 4, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
I could say the exact same thing to you.

What definition are you claiming I've changed.

Again; the Bible describes the unbeliever and it isn't synonymous with one who never knew GOD.

Scripture also tells us exactly what metric all will be judged according to and that metric is works.

To conclude according to these things takes a lack of indoctrination by men and a lack of preconceived bias. I can underhandedly insult you all day too; bit that isn't what we as believers are called to do. I understand that you don't believe our works matter, and that for that very reason you choose to accuse still further with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

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Unbelievers do not trust in God, nor do they want HIS justification that is from Christ's death and resurrection. Instead, at Judgment Day they are judged on their works which will not pass and that is because they are still tainted by sin and sin cannot be with God.

ImaginaryDay2 · Nov 4, 2019

Lämmchen said:
As a moderator on different boards I hear it all the time, "But he was flaming so I flamed him back". In other words, that member was trying to justify his sin.

Yesterday some churches celebrated Reformation Sunday. Reformation is really October 31 but churches celebrate it the Sunday before then. One main thing that Luther pointed out is that we can't self-justify.

In Luke 10 we see an expert in the Law asking Jesus about how to inherit eternal life and here is the following text:
Jesus responded:“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Blue Letter Bible said:
(W)ith the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach, (Deuteronomy 25:1; Sir. 13:22 (Sir. 13:21), etc.; an unjust judge is said δικαιοῦν τὸν ἀσεβῆ in Exodus 23:7; Isaiah 5:23): ἑαυτόν, Luke 10:29
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=NASB

So perhaps the expert in the law asked the question not to appear "justified" with God by works generally, but (as we might say) beyond reproach in this instance. It's interesting that scripture doesn't record the man's response to the parable of the Samaritan after the Lord's final instruction. He did, however, recognize the Samaritan as the true "neighbor".

Lamb · Nov 5, 2019

ImaginaryDay2 said:
So perhaps the expert in the law asked the question not to appear "justified" with God by works generally, but (as we might say) beyond reproach in this instance. It's interesting that scripture doesn't record the man's response to the parable of the Samaritan after the Lord's final instruction. He did, however, recognize the Samaritan as the true "neighbor".

Jesus is the Samaritan. The parable is really about Him.

Faith in self does not justify

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