American Churches dying

NewCreation435

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Just so I understand this, was the community built around the church? There is a church here in the Phoenix area that is very popular called Christ's Church of the Valley. I understand they have like three coffee shops and two restaurants on the church campus. I would say having those on the church campus is a definite problem, because when that happens, where is the focus?

I'm not sure what you mean by "was the community built around the church". It is a traditional church setting and no they don't have a coffee shop. My point was that when the economy changed and a big employer in the area left that most of the people left with it. Thus, a church that in the past had several hundred members is down to about 45-50 regular attenders
 

Josiah

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Just so I understand this, was the community built around the church? There is a church here in the Phoenix area that is very popular called Christ's Church of the Valley. I understand they have like three coffee shops and two restaurants on the church campus. I would say having those on the church campus is a definite problem, because when that happens, where is the focus?


WHY Christianity and the church is declining is a complex and difficult issue....

WHAT Christians and churches should do to reverse this is also complex....


There are churches that work HARD to be as worldly, as world-like as they can. I think this lies behind so much of "contemporary" worship, pastors in their Ahola shirts and jeans, churches with coffee shops, etc. I strongly question if making Christianity as secular, as worldly, as much a part of the culture is the best approach - or if perhaps it's counter productive. On the other hand, there is often wisdom in "coming along side" those we wish to "win" and removing needless barriers. Perhaps there's a balance here....


I know MANY who first were "churched" by some "Lite" "evangelical" rock-and-roll mega church - and very quickly left, looking for meat and not sugar water; some of these wander into historic churches (Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed...), a lot just drop out (these churches GAIN a lot, and LOOSE a lot) and some settle for the sugar-water. Yeah, I know of the leadership principle of "coming along side" BUT the principle continues "but don't leave them there!" IMO, some churches are good at the first part and entirely clueless about the second because that's all the church has.


Personally, I grew up in the church. I've been a Christian and very active in the church from birth. And it was a very rich spiritual and theological milieu (Catholic). I grew up with the liturgy and with an understanding and deep appreciation for all the theology and Scripture in it and on which it is built. I grew up with a deep sense of "US" - the community, the family, the "togetherness" of the church. When I left Catholicism, I looked for the same - just with better theology. I found it in the LCMS.


My $0.01


- Josiah



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Andrew

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Maybe due to the internet too, a lot of churches live stream
 

tango

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I would have to say it's because we don't water down the Scriptures, we rightly divide Law and Gospel, we administer the Sacraments, not ordinances and we don't shy away from saying people are sinners in need of God's grace. Ya know, Lutheran and everything that goes with it. [emoji4]

I live near a Lutheran church and know the administrator fairly well. He has often commented that the church won't change anything because it might upset the older members, with the result that younger people don't join the church. If people are raised in that church they may stay, if not they generally don't stay. As the older members die, so does the church. Barely half a mile away from that Lutheran church is a Mennonite church where the parking is full every Sunday and where, from what I gather, they have plenty of young families with children. I haven't been to that particular church but find it hard to imagine a Mennonite church being too into the idea of not talking about doctrine, even if they do welcome people coming in jeans.
 

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Maybe due to the internet too, a lot of churches live stream

That is a good point! I know people who don't like to get out and will watch church online or listen to the sermons. They want to stay connected as best they and sometimes it's because of medical or mental conditions.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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I live near a Lutheran church and know the administrator fairly well. He has often commented that the church won't change anything because it might upset the older members, with the result that younger people don't join the church. If people are raised in that church they may stay, if not they generally don't stay. As the older members die, so does the church. Barely half a mile away from that Lutheran church is a Mennonite church where the parking is full every Sunday and where, from what I gather, they have plenty of young families with children. I haven't been to that particular church but find it hard to imagine a Mennonite church being too into the idea of not talking about doctrine, even if they do welcome people coming in jeans.
What is it the younger people want changed and why? There are plenty of denominations that won't change things because it will upset the members. That isn't exclusive to Lutheranism. One thing young people don't like is the practice of Closed Communion. The Mennonite church probably appeals to them more because their practice is probably different.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Maybe due to the internet too, a lot of churches live stream
That's good for the shut-ins and people who physically or mentally can't get to church.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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I'm not sure what you mean by "was the community built around the church". It is a traditional church setting and no they don't have a coffee shop. My point was that when the economy changed and a big employer in the area left that most of the people left with it. Thus, a church that in the past had several hundred members is down to about 45-50 regular attenders
What I meant was like the church built first and then the businesses and people came, but then I realized that this place you're talking about is most likely not a frontier town in the 1880's. [emoji848]
 

Josiah

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continuing post 22 above.....


Some thoughts....



1. Christianity (and that means the church catholic) is to 1) Love as God first loved us 2) Make disciples of all 7.5 billion people by baptizing and teaching them. I think God wants EVERYONE to be Christian, and He wants us to spread His love and Gospel to all toward that end. That suggests to me a BIG church catholic (with 7.5 billion members currently).


2. BUT I don't think that necessarilly means that every parish is to have 2.83 million members, with half of those at at 8:00 Sunday service and half at the 10:30 worship service. Big Church does not equal all big parishes. Indeed, if the enormous diversity of 7.5 billion is to be incorporated, it's likely that will mean an enormous diversity of congregations. Just as some people thrive in New York City but others in Mayberry, so well.... different people thrive in different settings.


3. IF the purpose of every congregation was to have 2.83 million people in worship every Sunday... and achieving that was simply doing (and not doing) certain things then all every congregation would need to do is those things and they'll have have 2.83 people in church every Sunday. OBVIOUSLY that's not the case. It ain't as easy as "Copy/paste" .... And of course, likely Jesus would have given us those 10 Things and thus all congregations would be that size.


4. I don't see the purpose of every parish to have 2.83 million members. I see the purpose of every congregation to love people and to be faithful to His Word. I think a congregation of 3 can do that just as well as a congregation of 7 million members. I'm not sure Jesus will ask us, "Did your individual parish have average Sunday attendance of 3 million." I'm pretty sure He'll ask, Did you love? Did you teach what I taught?" When I look at a church, I look primarily to two things: Do they love? Is the Word rightly taught?



Just my half cent.



- Josiah




.
 

NewCreation435

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What I meant was like the church built first and then the businesses and people came, but then I realized that this place you're talking about is most likely not a frontier town in the 1880's. [emoji848]

close to that. It was founded about 100 years ago. Obviously things have changed a lot since then in the community
 

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My dad said that the percentage of the Christians in America have come down currently and many are being Aethist or follow no religion. Other countries seem to have a rise in Christian percentage.
 

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My dad said that the percentage of the Christians in America have come down currently and many are being Aethist or follow no religion. Other countries seem to have a rise in Christian percentage.

Your dad's right! It's a shame that it's coming to this but I've noticed that a lot of the 20 somethings are being swayed against Christianity while in college. They were Christians when they went away to college and return back changed into Atheists. It's really sad how influenced they are.
 

Albion

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My dad said that the percentage of the Christians in America have come down currently and many are being Aethist or follow no religion. Other countries seem to have a rise in Christian percentage.

Which other countries might those be? It certainly wouldn't seem to include European ones, formerly the bastion of Christianity. Or Canada. Or the Middle East where they are being killed off. And this is not to say that there are no places in which Christianity is gaining. China, for example.
 

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China, India etc.. are the countries were many are turning towards Christianity.
 

Josiah

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continuing post 22 above.....


Some thoughts....



1. Christianity (and that means the church catholic) is to 1) Love as God first loved us 2) Make disciples of all 7.5 billion people by baptizing and teaching them. I think God wants EVERYONE to be Christian, and He wants us to spread His love and Gospel to all toward that end. That suggests to me a BIG church catholic (with 7.5 billion members currently).


2. BUT I don't think that necessarilly means that every parish is to have 2.83 million members, with half of those at at 8:00 Sunday service and half at the 10:30 worship service. Big Church does not equal all big parishes. Indeed, if the enormous diversity of 7.5 billion is to be incorporated, it's likely that will mean an enormous diversity of congregations. Just as some people thrive in New York City but others in Mayberry, so well.... different people thrive in different settings.


3. IF the purpose of every congregation was to have 2.83 million people in worship every Sunday... and achieving that was simply doing (and not doing) certain things then all every congregation would need to do is those things and they'll have have 2.83 people in church every Sunday. OBVIOUSLY that's not the case. It ain't as easy as "Copy/paste" .... And of course, likely Jesus would have given us those 10 Things and thus all congregations would be that size.


4. I don't see the purpose of every parish to have 2.83 million members. I see the purpose of every congregation to love people and to be faithful to His Word. I think a congregation of 3 can do that just as well as a congregation of 7 million members. I'm not sure Jesus will ask us, "Did your individual parish have average Sunday attendance of 3 million." I'm pretty sure He'll ask, Did you love? Did you teach what I taught?" When I look at a church, I look primarily to two things: Do they love? Is the Word rightly taught?



Just my half cent.



- Josiah





.


In this thread, there's an implied rebuke of congregations with "just old people." Interesting, if a congregation had "just Millennials" that would probably be praised. IMO, if a church is effective in ministering to some sub-group (Millennials, families, Hispanics. etc.) that's a good thing; there's nothing "bad" about focusing on some group, especially if they are effective in doing so. It may well be that seniors have needs as important as those of teens or young families? Of course, a church specializing in Millennials will have a constant turn-over as that generation moves on, just as a senior church will need to do that. I see nothing wrong per se in focusing on seniors and being a good church for seniors, as long as it is effectively in that ministry and new seniors are coming in to replace those leaving for heaven.
 

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God raises up churches for a season. Some have longer seasons than others. Some shrink because of human movement. Some shrink because of sin lurking in the fellowship.
Pastors and leaders must remain faithful to God and not worry about size. A small congregation may be mighty in the Lord. A big congregation maybe weak and empty of the Spirit's power.
God doesn't care about the building in which Christians fellowship.
 

Andrew

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God raises up churches for a season. Some have longer seasons than others. Some shrink because of human movement. Some shrink because of sin lurking in the fellowship.
Pastors and leaders must remain faithful to God and not worry about size. A small congregation may be mighty in the Lord. A big congregation maybe weak and empty of the Spirit's power.
God doesn't care about the building in which Christians fellowship.
I think church leaders need to pay attention to the early church fathers and their letters, they are really very good and this is right after Paul, these letters always addressed issues in the churches but many churches today won't dare ridicule their congregation in fear of upsetting them.. All of Asia turned away from Paul, one might not gain any more converts but they need to at least hold fast to what they DO have!
 

tango

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What is it the younger people want changed and why? There are plenty of denominations that won't change things because it will upset the members. That isn't exclusive to Lutheranism. One thing young people don't like is the practice of Closed Communion. The Mennonite church probably appeals to them more because their practice is probably different.

I can't say what the younger people want changed at that particular church but from the very few times I've attended (the last time was in 2008 for a funeral) I suspect they just want something a little more lively than ancient hymns played too slowly. My friend never said specifically what people want to change - sometimes people don't even say what might have encouraged them to stay. He's not the only person involved in a church who has commented about people who attend a handful of times and then just leave without anyone having chance to find out why they didn't stay.

Of course a major trouble with many churches, once they get to a point where most of the members are elderly, is that it becomes increasingly difficult to attract families with children. Families naturally want a children's ministry for their kids but until there's a critical mass of kids it's all but impossible to make it happen. So the families move to another church where there are more children, leaving the elderly church to fade away and slowly die. From there trying to do things to draw young families possibly means changes that will upset the older folks, so if the young families don't come you potentially push what life is left out of the church.

It's often hard to know what might upset the older folks. At my last church one of the older members was seriously talking about leaving because we were undertaking a major building renovation and she didn't think it would be "her church" any more. Part of the renovation was necessary to remain compliant with the newer building standards, part of it was providing more space for the rapidly growing children's groups we had, and part of it was about a general update and improvement. Thankfully she decided to at least try the new church before giving up, as she concluded that she didn't need to leave after all. The people were the same, the services were the same, the ministries were the same, even if the physical layout of the building had changed.

I know a reluctance to change isn't exclusive to Lutheranism, I merely noted that this particular church happens to be Lutheran and the things that push people away are unlikely to relate to too much tradition, given how well the Mennonite church barely half a mile away does so well. I can't say I've ever associated Mennonite churches with being at the cutting edge of modernity, although I could be wrong on that particular church.
 

Josiah

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I can't say what the younger people want changed at that particular church but from the very few times I've attended (the last time was in 2008 for a funeral) I suspect they just want something a little more lively than ancient hymns played too slowly. My friend never said specifically what people want to change - sometimes people don't even say what might have encouraged them to stay. He's not the only person involved in a church who has commented about people who attend a handful of times and then just leave without anyone having chance to find out why they didn't stay.

Of course a major trouble with many churches, once they get to a point where most of the members are elderly, is that it becomes increasingly difficult to attract families with children. Families naturally want a children's ministry for their kids but until there's a critical mass of kids it's all but impossible to make it happen. So the families move to another church where there are more children, leaving the elderly church to fade away and slowly die. From there trying to do things to draw young families possibly means changes that will upset the older folks, so if the young families don't come you potentially push what life is left out of the church.

It's often hard to know what might upset the older folks. At my last church one of the older members was seriously talking about leaving because we were undertaking a major building renovation and she didn't think it would be "her church" any more. Part of the renovation was necessary to remain compliant with the newer building standards, part of it was providing more space for the rapidly growing children's groups we had, and part of it was about a general update and improvement. Thankfully she decided to at least try the new church before giving up, as she concluded that she didn't need to leave after all. The people were the same, the services were the same, the ministries were the same, even if the physical layout of the building had changed.

I know a reluctance to change isn't exclusive to Lutheranism, I merely noted that this particular church happens to be Lutheran and the things that push people away are unlikely to relate to too much tradition, given how well the Mennonite church barely half a mile away does so well. I can't say I've ever associated Mennonite churches with being at the cutting edge of modernity, although I could be wrong on that particular church.



I already shared my perspective in post 29 (also 22 and 35)....




...but to respond to your post, my friend....


1. I think churches are working against a whole consumer mentality, a mindset the everything/everyone exists to serve them, one criteria: "what's in it for ME, how will this benefit ME?" That's hard. Jesus did not set up the church with this in mind. John Kennedy once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" but today, 99.9% of people (including nearly all Christians) think he was nuts and that that whole mentality is just weird (people even quote him saying the opposite). My Dad use to say, "There are only two kinds of people in the world: Those who look for greener grass and those who work to make the grass greener." (He also noted that the first group never achieves their goal). IMO, the Christian looking for a church that will serve them, that will give to them, proceeding with the whole "what's in it for ME" attitude has a Christian problem.... and they aren't too likely to be happy anywhere. When I found the church where I eventually joined, I looked for two things: Where the Word is rightly taught and where there was evident love. But I also had in mind: Can I help here? No, there were few people my age (and not ONE cute, single girl my age!!!!) but I was welcomed into the choir (I'm a good singer and I love choir), welcomed to help with the property needs (I'm pretty good with that sort of thing; thank you, Dad), immediately (many months before I joined), several other things, too. I was welcomed and appreciated and was making a difference.


2. Trying to be all things to all people isn't always a good policy. Trying to be just like "Loud Lite Community Fellowship" down the street (and not able to do what they they even more than they do it) isn't always a good policy,. IMO. Just because Loud Lite Fellowship does a good job of getting Millennials to attend (for a few months - then loose them) doesn't mean "Faith Reformed Church" MUST copy/paste the same mission. I think there's some wisdom in prayerfully considering one's own church's mission/ministry... establishing one's OWN mission statement (that might NOT be identical to Loud Lite Community Fellowship), in being what they are (and doing that well) rather than trying to be what they aren't (and doing that badly). Doing well what we want to do might be a better approach than badly trying to copy Loud Lite Fellowship.



An illustration. When I joined, I was asked to re-start the Youth Group. Years ago, the church bad one but it died; being young, it was assumed I could create a great group - in spite of the reality that we had 4 (yup, FOUR) active high school kids in the church. There are two HUGE mega "churches" within 2 miles of our church - classic examples of Huge Lite Fellowship (neither has any doctrine,but they have REALLY LOUD worship and gobs and gobs of fun stuff happening - including youth groups with hundreds of kids each, involved in theatre, music, sports, etc.). The pastor told me they occasionally had families with teens visit our church (we worship under 100) and when they learned we don't have 12 youth pastors and 1000 kids in our youth groups and not one soccer team, well..... I was suppose to solve this BECAUSE the church WANTED to serve these... um.... FOUR high school kids. I met with those 4 and learned they didn't want that (which is one reason they didn't go to either of those two mega neighbors). Here's what we did: We just met. With FOUR. These were pretty spiritual kids..... so I did a Bible study and we TALKED (in a very trusting milieu) and prayed for each other. No bowling. No plays. No singing groups. No halloween parties. Bible Study.... sharing.... praying..... supporting. Now we have 7 kids. Another couple has begun the same thing with kids in the fifth and sixth grads (where we have more kids) with the idea of BUILDING a caring supportive community. Ours is a small church... with a lot of love and care.... and a strong emphasis on truth. Our approach has been to embrace who we are - and run with that. Will we likely ever have 12 youth pastors and over 1000 kids involved in basketball, funny plays, and such? Probably not. But if that's what is wanted, they know where to go....those two churches do that VERY well.






.
 

tango

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In this thread, there's an implied rebuke of congregations with "just old people." Interesting, if a congregation had "just Millennials" that would probably be praised. IMO, if a church is effective in ministering to some sub-group (Millennials, families, Hispanics. etc.) that's a good thing; there's nothing "bad" about focusing on some group, especially if they are effective in doing so. It may well be that seniors have needs as important as those of teens or young families? Of course, a church specializing in Millennials will have a constant turn-over as that generation moves on, just as a senior church will need to do that. I see nothing wrong per se in focusing on seniors and being a good church for seniors, as long as it is effectively in that ministry and new seniors are coming in to replace those leaving for heaven.

I don't think there's any rebuke at all of "just old people", merely an observation that when a church is predominantly made up of the same old people (with no new old people arriving) then over time the most likely outcome is that the church will die. When the members die and aren't replaced, the church can only become so small before it ceases to be viable. As you say, a church of "just old people" needs a fresh supply of old people, whether they are moving into the nearby retirement home or simply people who were middle-aged a decade or so back. My concern isn't for a church that has a steady supply of older folks and remains stable, it's more for the kind of church that has a bunch of old people in it, doesn't attract new members of any age, and slowly dies as the members age and die.

One thing I really liked about my last church was that we had almost every age range covered. We had newborns and we had some people who were barely still alive. When we visit the area and visit the church again it's sometimes surprising that some of the older members are still hanging on because they were really frail when we moved. The church was full just about every Sunday, and when the children were sent to their classes the front half or so emptied out. Curiously we had virtually nobody aged between about 21-29, which meant that the few people we did get in that age group often didn't stay for very long.

A small church may well struggle to be all things to all people. One thing that always strikes me as a huge shame is when parents struggle to find a church that will feed their children while also feeding them. I know a few parents who attend churches that do very little for them, simply because they are happy with the children's ministries there and go for the sake of their kids, figuring they can do their own Bible studies at home.
 
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