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    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: Children afraid the end of the world will come

    1. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      So are you suggesting that the passage in 2 Chronicles 7:14 doesn't apply to us at all?
      In the context it was presented, yes. Of course we should repent but when the passage was written it applied to God's people (the ancient Israelites) and their land (Israel). If it is presented as being directly applicable in the same way in the modern age we need to discuss who God's people are (presumably Christians) and what "our land" means in this context. Since this is a US-based board, is anyone suggesting that if Christians in the US repent then the land known as the United States will be healed (whatever that means) even while the non-Christian population continues to pollute it?

      Today if we repent God forgives our sins. That doesn't necessarily take away secular consequences of our sins.

      If someone would like to make a coherent case for why the verse is directly applicable today then by all means have at it. Quoting a single verse with little regard to the context isn't a useful contribution, hence my comparable usages of Php 4:13 and Job 22:28.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    2. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      In the context it was presented, yes. Of course we should repent but when the passage was written it applied to God's people (the ancient Israelites) and their land (Israel). If it is presented as being directly applicable in the same way in the modern age we need to discuss who God's people are (presumably Christians) and what "our land" means in this context. Since this is a US-based board, is anyone suggesting that if Christians in the US repent then the land known as the United States will be healed (whatever that means) even while the non-Christian population continues to pollute it?

      Today if we repent God forgives our sins. That doesn't necessarily take away secular consequences of our sins.

      If someone would like to make a coherent case for why the verse is directly applicable today then by all means have at it. Quoting a single verse with little regard to the context isn't a useful contribution, hence my comparable usages of Php 4:13 and Job 22:28.
      Challenge gladly accepted!

      As I mentioned earlier, our God does not change. And His Kingdom principles are indeed Eternal. And indeed, the "healing of the land" includes our heathen neighbors. God is not waiting for them to repent, but for His people who are "called by His Name" (see 2Tim 2:19, and we see that this includes "Christians.") to repent and "depart from iniquity."

      All the troubles came upon ancient Israel because they refused to obey God. He told them directly several times that He would "heal" them or "curse" them dependent on their behavior.
      Besides 2Chron 7:14, we have Ex 15:26, Deut 11:1-28 and Deut 28:1-68, in which God tells His people how their obedience or disobedience will affect not only their personal health and well-being, but the condition of their crops, the weather and the animals in their midst. Paul says a couple times in 1Cor 10 that what happened to them is an example for us (1Cor 10:6 & 1Cor 10:11)

      Our God does not change. His Elect are His people. And if His hand is upon us, here in America in the 21st Century, for His purpose, are we not "His people"? "even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
      25 As He says also in Hosea:
      “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
      And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
      26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
      ‘You are not My people,’
      There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

      - Rom 9:24-26

      Paul's was a personal assertion in Phil 4:13, not a blanket statement for the church-goers. And in Job 22, we have Eliphaz admonishing Job concerning his own personal faith, not worldwide affairs.
      And you may not agree, and that's fine, but I blame the great bulk of problems in the world on the Church, including the condition of our land. But we will fix absolutely nothing by protests and marches, or even recycling and reduction; only by Repentance from sin.

      And yes! Of this I am absolutely certain.

      (in fact I've been working on a novel based on that very fact for the past couple years. Hoping to wrap it up one day. )

      Peace & Blessings.
      "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ,
      the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
      - 1Cor 11:3

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    4. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
      Challenge gladly accepted!

      As I mentioned earlier, our God does not change. And His Kingdom principles are indeed Eternal. And indeed, the "healing of the land" includes our heathen neighbors. God is not waiting for them to repent, but for His people who are "called by His Name" (see 2Tim 2:19, and we see that this includes "Christians.") to repent and "depart from iniquity."

      All the troubles came upon ancient Israel because they refused to obey God. He told them directly several times that He would "heal" them or "curse" them dependent on their behavior.
      Besides 2Chron 7:14, we have Ex 15:26, Deut 11:1-28 and Deut 28:1-68, in which God tells His people how their obedience or disobedience will affect not only their personal health and well-being, but the condition of their crops, the weather and the animals in their midst. Paul says a couple times in 1Cor 10 that what happened to them is an example for us (1Cor 10:6 & 1Cor 10:11)

      Our God does not change. His Elect are His people. And if His hand is upon us, here in America in the 21st Century, for His purpose, are we not "His people"? "even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
      25 As He says also in Hosea:
      “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
      And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
      26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
      ‘You are not My people,’
      There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

      - Rom 9:24-26
      You still haven't addressed my underlying question. In the times of the ancient Israelites "God's people" were the Israelites and "their land" was Israel. Now "God's people" are scattered across the world and there is so place that can be referred to as "their land" in the same sense that Israel was "their land" when the books of Chronicles were written.

      Do you believe that if burning fossil fuels causes climate change, climate change can be stopped by repenting of sins rather than reducing the use of fossil fuels? Will the widespread repentence of Christians across America stop other nations dumping toxic waste into the oceans? You've come up with some fine-sounding words with a few Scriptures thrown in but without answering the question.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    5. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      You still haven't addressed my underlying question. In the times of the ancient Israelites "God's people" were the Israelites and "their land" was Israel. Now "God's people" are scattered across the world and there is so place that can be referred to as "their land" in the same sense that Israel was "their land" when the books of Chronicles were written.

      Do you believe that if burning fossil fuels causes climate change, climate change can be stopped by repenting of sins rather than reducing the use of fossil fuels? Will the widespread repentence of Christians across America stop other nations dumping toxic waste into the oceans? You've come up with some fine-sounding words with a few Scriptures thrown in but without answering the question.
      I believe I have answered the question.

      If we limit the promises of God to just the physical nation and people of Israel we do His Word great injustice. Being "grafted in" we Gentiles become part of that "one olive Tree" and "fellow partakers of the promise" , indeed the promises of God given throughout the old Testament and the New.
      Again, the "land" receives healing when God's people repent and obey. Does His promise become of none effect if His people dwell outside the physical (and ever changing) borders of Israel? Of course not. That would mean that if the Jews in America repented God could bring only restoration to Israel in the Middle East, but not the USA.
      Those who have been called by God as His Elect affect everything around them when they obey Him. I absolutely believe that if the Church in America (not the masses of church-goers, but His Elect) actually did "humble themselves and pray and seek His face and turn from their wicked ways" that God would bring real restoration to this nation, or any nation in which His people did these things.
      This whole "climate change" nonsense is only a distraction, as is so much else of what goes in, especially in our churches... all designed to keep God's people from actually "turning from their sin" and "obeying His commands" given through Christ Jesus & His Apostles.
      Do we really believe that man can thwart God's plan by destroying the planet He established, with our methane & refrigerant & hairspray, before He can bring about the end of the world His way?
      OR... is it possible that God will bring about one of the promised plaques in Revelation by the means of "global warming" which of course comes because God's people refuse to repent. It always comes back to Repentance: an actual turning away and ceasing from sin.

      "Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory." - Rev 16:8-9
      Last edited by Michael; 09-30-2019 at 03:16 PM. Reason: typo
      "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ,
      the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
      - 1Cor 11:3

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    7. #35
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      You didn't answer the question because you didn't address what "their land" means if you try and apply 2Ch7:14 to the modern age. If God promises that if "his people" repent he will heal "their land", we can establish that in this age "his people" include Gentiles but have to determine what counts as "their land". If I repent will God heal my land in the sense of the little patch of land that I personally own, or does the healing spread to my neighbor's land even if he doesn't repent? If I repent while my neighbor dumps toxic waste right next to the boundary line, does my land still get healed or does the toxic waste poison my land?

      Your comment about climate change undoes any claim that God will "heal their land" in this age given the long term plan is clearly to destroy so much of it. Unless you want to argue that the events of the Revelation can be stalled or cancelled by people repenting (which rather flies in the face of what the Revelation actually says). I'm not sure how you conclude that the people blaspheming God's name are God's people.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    8. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      You didn't answer the question because you didn't address what "their land" means if you try and apply 2Ch7:14 to the modern age. If God promises that if "his people" repent he will heal "their land", we can establish that in this age "his people" include Gentiles but have to determine what counts as "their land". If I repent will God heal my land in the sense of the little patch of land that I personally own, or does the healing spread to my neighbor's land even if he doesn't repent? If I repent while my neighbor dumps toxic waste right next to the boundary line, does my land still get healed or does the toxic waste poison my land?

      Your comment about climate change undoes any claim that God will "heal their land" in this age given the long term plan is clearly to destroy so much of it. Unless you want to argue that the events of the Revelation can be stalled or cancelled by people repenting (which rather flies in the face of what the Revelation actually says). I'm not sure how you conclude that the people blaspheming God's name are God's people.
      You haven't really rebutted what I've stated from the Scripture. So I stand confident on what I said.
      Thanks for the interaction. Such discussions nearly always help to confirm what I believe.
      God bless you & guide you as you walk the Way of the cross.
      Peace!
      "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ,
      the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
      - 1Cor 11:3

    9. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
      You haven't really rebutted what I've stated from the Scripture. So I stand confident on what I said.
      Thanks for the interaction. Such discussions nearly always help to confirm what I believe.
      God bless you & guide you as you walk the Way of the cross.
      Peace!
      I think you're asking the wrong things here. There is really no rebuttal of what the Scripture says, the question is whether it is applicable to this day and age. Just like there's no rebuttal of what Job 22:28 says but it's easy to point out how, despite what the words say, it doesn't mean we can speak things into being, so the question of 2Ch7:14 isn't what the Scripture says but whether it is still directly relevant today.

      Jer 29:11 is an encouraging verse but was given to the Israelites before they went into captivity. Today its relevance is that it can encourage us that God doesn't forget about us, although using it word-for-word as a promise from God to you or me as individuals potentially creates problems. Likewise the first few verses of Jeremiah when God said how he was ordained since before the world began is a clear calling from God but it doesn't apply to you or to me today.

      Hence the question of what counts as "their land", if you want to make the claim that 2Ch 7:14 is as directly applicable today as when it was first written.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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