5 Causes of the Protestant Reformation (besides indulgences)

NewCreation435

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Andrew

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I would say that they (the papacy) were "whoring" with the world in general and sooner or later a figure would start questioning them and put them in their proper place.
Is this what they mean my nationalism? Becoming too involved with world politics and economics?
 

NewCreation435

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I would say that they (the papacy) were "whoring" with the world in general and sooner or later a figure would start questioning them and put them in their proper place.
Is this what they mean my nationalism? Becoming too involved with world politics and economics?

This is what the article says about nationalism.

"The period of the Avignon Papacy came at a time when the ideology of nationalism was on the rise. Writes Belloc, “This change (or rather interlude, for the change was not permanent) fell just at the moment when a national spirit was beginning to develop in the various regions of Europe…”
The Hundred Years War between England and France (1337-1453), which ended with the campaigns of Joan of Arc and her successors, only “enhanced national feeling,” and thus weakened the religious bond that had previously held together Christians throughout Western Europe."
 

Albion

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This article lists 5 causes besides the indulgences for the Protestant Reformation

1. The Abandonment of Rome by the Pope
2. The Rise of Nationalism
3. The Black Death
4. The Decline of Latin
5. Corruption in the church

the whole article is here
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/5-causes-protestant-reformation-besides-indulgences

I would encourage you to read the whole article before commenting. It is a rather short article

The author, drawing from his Catholic background, seems bent upon "de-spiritualizing" the Protestant Reformation by highlighting a series of true but peripheral developments that preceded the Reformation.

This approach implies that there were not serious theological defects in Roman Catholic doctrine being challenged by the Reformers but only a little "corruption" (a favorite contention among Catholics that says corrupt practices on the part of Popes, bishops, and so on, did not affect the basic truth of Catholic doctrine and could -- and most likely would -- have been corrected by Rome if only Luther et al had shown more patience, etc. etc).

The article is not a good exercise in historical research.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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The Reformation

The reformation reformed nothing, only rebellion against Christ and His holy church!
Starting new churches (sects) and making new doctrine (heresy) is not reformation!

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Faith hope and charity! 1 cor 13:13
Three are eternal, and the greatest is charity!
“Faith alone”? Never faith, hope, & charity are inseparable!
If salvation was by faith alone then the greatest would be faith, but as even “all faith“ without charity avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2

The rotten tree of the so called reformation bringing forth rotten fruit of false doctrine of “Faith alone” & “Bible alone” pure spiritual blindness!

Socialism / naturalism is the fruit of the reformation! As well as modern atheism: reason apart from revealed Divine faith!
And
Fundamentalism: faith apart from reason!

These are the modern errors and the fruits of the so called reformation!

All of these are rebelling against Christ and his church, and against family, society, and civil government!
And again all proper authority!

The reformation is only an extension of Satan’s rebellion against God, Christ and His holy church!

The so called reformation is an evil tree putting forth Posionous fruit!

Doctrines of devils leading to rebellion against all Divinely revealed authority!

Protestant rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of the church!
Fundamentalist rebellion against reason!
Atheist rebellion against faith!
Socialism rebellion against marrige, and family, the fabric of society!
Communism rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of civil government, God given rights, and private property!

All the bitter fruits of the so called reformation! Better known as the great rebellion!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary brought forth the good fruit of salvation!

QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON SOCIALISM

(Caused by the reformation)

The boldness of these bad men, (communists) which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit. For you know, venerable brethren, that that most deadly war which from the sixteenth century down has been waged by innovators against the Catholic faith, and which has grown in intensity up to today, had for its object to subvert all revelation, and overthrow the supernatural order, that thus the way might be opened for the discoveries, or rather the hallucinations, of reason alone.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Virtues are not natural, but supernatural helps from God!

The virtues are exercised to the highest degree in Mary most holy and to perfection in Jesus Christ!

The doctrine of demons are filled with the vices of the demons!

Humility and obedience are the virtues most forgotten and ignored, many who claim the name of Christ are not practicing His virtues

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

Christ and His church are one!

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

Faith hope and charity! 1 cor 13:13
Three are eternal, and the greatest is charity!
“Faith alone”? Never faith, hope, & charity are inseparable!
If salvation was by faith alone then the greatest would be faith, but as even “all faith“ without charity avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2

Spiritual Anarchy!

Christ and His church are one!
God cannot reveal error and the church cannot teach error!

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

True Christians do not act from
Pride, presumption, and arrogance!

Private judgement!

Personal interpretation!

I decide truth for myself!

These are NOT Christian virtues!

This is NOT faith!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

This extends to the truth and to the church founded by Christ to teach all
men!

Cos Jesus Christ is the truth and cos His church is of divine origin, commissioned to teach the truth!

Christians must be taught and that requires humility! Lk 1:4 matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 acts 2:42 acts 8:31

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
 

Lamb

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The Reformation

The reformation reformed nothing, only rebellion against Christ and His holy church!

Then you obviously aren't aware that the Reformation also reformed the Roman Catholic Church and a good old history lesson is needed here.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Then you obviously aren't aware that the Reformation also reformed the Roman Catholic Church and a good old history lesson is needed here.
Go for it!

truth is revealed by God and cannot change
The church is founded by Christ and cannot be reformed
How is starting new churches and creating new doctrine reformation???
 

Lamb

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Go for it!

truth is revealed by God and cannot change
The church is founded by Christ and cannot be reformed
How is starting new churches and creating new doctrine reformation???

Well you read the bible on your own now, don't you? Do you buy indulgences? Those are some major reformations right there.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Well you read the bible on your own now, don't you? Do you buy indulgences? Those are some major reformations right there.
No one ever buys indulgences
You could always read scripture
You cannot make you’re own doctrine

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
 

Lamb

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No one ever buys indulgences
You could always read scripture
You cannot make you’re own doctrine

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

But they did buy indulgences prior to the Reformation and prior to the Reformation, only the priests could read the bible.

And please stop calling Lutherans, Calvinists and others not true Christians or you're out of here. My members don't need to put up with that abuse from you.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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But they did buy indulgences prior to the Reformation and prior to the Reformation, only the priests could read the bible.

And please stop calling Lutherans, Calvinists and others not true Christians or you're out of here. My members don't need to put up with that abuse from you.
Sorry I have extensive notes and post alot
No offense intended

no these are accusation based on prejudice and spiritual pride
There are many ways to gain indulgences
All are the merits of christ
Jn 1:16-17
One way was to make a DONATION to a charitable cause and they accused this of selling indulgences but it’s not

it like a bakers dozen, but a dozen donuts and get on free, that’s not the same as sell 13

anyone could read the bible
The issue was the rarity books and books were expensive including the bible even after the press and the fact that until the 20th century most people could not read

besides Christ commanded his church to teach
Faith cometh by hearing not reading
 

Josiah

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Faith cometh by hearing not reading


ONLY by hearing? If so, thus you hold that the Sacraments cannot bring faith since they can't be read.... and that the illiterate cannot have faith and thus in the Middle Ages, less than 1% of the people had faith since they could not read. I find that silly.

Yes, Christians are to TEACH and thus the church is to teach. But nowhere does Scripture state that The Catholic Church is the exclusive teacher or an inerrant/unaccountable teacher. You know that (everyone does), nope not in Scripture. It is an (egotistical, power-grabbing, accountability-evaded, "lord-it-over-others-as-the-gentiles-do) claim of The Catholic Church for it itself, not found in Scripture. We all know that (you likely will go to lengths to PROVE this - it is your usual 'MO") but we all already know that.



.
 

Lamb

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Sorry I have extensive notes and post alot
No offense intended

no these are accusation based on prejudice and spiritual pride
There are many ways to gain indulgences
All are the merits of christ
Jn 1:16-17
One way was to make a DONATION to a charitable cause and they accused this of selling indulgences but it’s not

it like a bakers dozen, but a dozen donuts and get on free, that’s not the same as sell 13

anyone could read the bible
The issue was the rarity books and books were expensive including the bible even after the press and the fact that until the 20th century most people could not read

besides Christ commanded his church to teach
Faith cometh by hearing not reading

Please don't say I have spiritual pride by stating the truth about indulgences. They WERE for sale prior to the Reformation and that's a historical fact.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Please don't say I have spiritual pride by stating the truth about indulgences. They WERE for sale prior to the Reformation and that's a historical fact.
That’s an accusation!
I was not refering to you personally
 

Lamb

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Faithhopeandcharity

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Then you obviously aren't aware that the Reformation also reformed the Roman Catholic Church and a good old history lesson is needed here.
The church was founded by Christ, are you saying he founded and imperfect church?
 

Josiah

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The church was founded by Christ, are you saying he founded and imperfect church?


Your church is imperfect (as any Catholic knows). It is not holy, every Catholic KNOWS that.

The church Jesus founded (the church made up of every Christian - on earth and in heaven) IS holy because all Christians are forgiven.




The Bible uses the word "CHURCH" in two very different ways:


CHURCH. (invisible)

"The one, holy, catholic community of saints" as most Christians proclaim each Sunday. This is PEOPLE, the PEOPLE of God. ALL those to whom God has given the divine gifts of faith, spiritual life, justification (narrow) and the Holy Spirit. It is the entire corpus of such (both on earth and now in heaven). It is "invisible" in the sense that it is not a human/geopolical/legal/economic entity but is "visible" in the sense that faith among the faithful is observable. It is ONE (because we are one body, one family, brothers and sisters in Christ), united in our faith in CHRIST as THE (one, only, exclusive) Savior. It is HOLY because all in it are forgiven via that faith in that Savior. It is CATHOLIC because it embraces ALL believers everywhere and in every time, it is a communion because we are united into one spiritual entity.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 4:4
1 Peter 2:9
Romans 12:4
Ephesians 1:1
Luke 17:21



CONGREGATION/PARISH (visible)

Example: Good Shepherd Catholic Church of Beverly Hills, CA. Concordia Lutheran Church of Jamestown, ND.

A congregation is a gathering of Christian people in a given place and time. They gather together by their Lord's direction to worship, study, serve/minister, grow, support, love and hold each other accountable. They MAY put institutional aspects into place (name, constitution/by laws, articles of corporation, budgets, officers, property, etc.) so that that association has institutional aspects or simply may be Christians who gather in some living room. While the word "church" is often used for this too, it is NOT to be confused with THE Church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of saints: these associations are at most a tiny and current subset of THE Church. There are tens of millions of congregations in the world, very few last more than a century so they tend to have a beginning and an end. It is NOT divinely mandated that all Christians associate into some congregation/parish, but many do and many believe this is a good thing but there are hundreds of millions of "non-congregational" Christians.

Galatians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Revelation 1:4
1 Corinthians 1:2


The word "CHURCH" has two additional meanings in modern English. These meanings are not found in Scripture:



DENOMINATION

Examples: "The Orthodox Presbyterian Church" "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod" "The Greek Orthodox Church" "The Catholic Church"

At times, a group of congregations MAY choose to associate together - forming an institution of them, an association of congregations.

This USUALLY is a formal institution - but it can at times simply refer to a common creed among congregations (as in "the Lutheran denomination" - there actually are over 300 Lutheran denomination institutions, but theoretically, most share a common creed, the Lutheran Confessions). These congregations associate together into denominations for similar reasons that Christians associate into congregations: for the purposes of mutual edification, ministry, support and accountability. Some of these are extremely "loose" (the "United Church of Christ" in the USA would be an example), the most radical forms are very strong they even may actually legally own and operate the member congregations (the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church USA are examples of very radical, extreme denominations).

Congregations can be denominational (as most are) or non-denominational. Denominational ones are associated with other congregations - with a common formal statement of faith and often with some governance above and outside itself, whereas non-denominational ones are independent and autonomous. There is no divine mandate that a congregation be denominational (and millions aren't) but most are and most believe this is a benefit.

There are no Scriptures that mention denominations. Many hold that none clearly existed until the Roman Empire formed "The Roman Church" in the early 4th Century, created by itself for itself in the image of itself.

Some definitions:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.


From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: "A group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."


From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive faith."


From Allwords.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith."


American Heritage Dictionary:
Denomination: "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."


Is the RCC a denomination? It is unless one insists that it has no Catechism or beliefs, that is has no bishops or archbishops or cardinals or pope, that each priest is entirely autonomous, that each parish is absolutely independent and has nothing to do with ANY other parish.


BUILDING

The word is often used for a building used for religious purposes by Christians.



- Josiah




.
 

Lamb

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The church was founded by Christ, are you saying he founded and imperfect church?

Your denomination is imperfect. They all are. But God's one true "church" (with a small c meaning universal) is perfected by Him.
 

Faithhopeandcharity

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Your denomination is imperfect. They all are. But God's one true "church" (with a small c meaning universal) is perfected by Him.
Where is that in scripture?
No denominations only one true church!
Jn 10:16
 
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