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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: JOHN 15:1 THE TRUE VINE

    1. #1
      Doug is offline Junior Member
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      JOHN 15:1 THE TRUE VINE

      John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

      15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

      15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

      15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

      15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

      15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

      15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

      15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

      Jesus is the vine and his disciples the branches. The branches can not bear fruit apart from the vine. The disciples are to bear much fruit and will be pruned to produce more fruit unto righteousness. The branches will be cleansed through the word of Christ. By their fruit they glorify God and are known to be his disciples.

      Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

      3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

      3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

      John came preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins to cleanse Israel for the earthly Davidic kingdom (Mark 1:4) and to believe on Jesus (Acts 19:4). If Israel did not repent and bear fruit they would be hewn down and cast into the fire.

      Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

      13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

      When Christ establishes his earthly kingdom the unbelievers of Israel will be gathered out of the kingdom and cast into the fire.

      Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      The unprofitable believing remnant of Israel will be cast into outer darkness and assigned a place with the hypocrites (Matthew 24:51).

      The disciples of Christ and his kingdom will be known by their fruits (Matthew 7:20) but nowhere does Paul say this about the church, the body of Christ. The church, the body is to be fruitful in good works and pleasing to the Lord (Colossians 1:10).

    2. #2
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
      John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

      15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

      15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

      15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

      15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

      15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

      15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

      15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

      Jesus is the vine and his disciples the branches. The branches can not bear fruit apart from the vine. The disciples are to bear much fruit and will be pruned to produce more fruit unto righteousness. The branches will be cleansed through the word of Christ. By their fruit they glorify God and are known to be his disciples.

      Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

      3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

      3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

      John came preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins to cleanse Israel for the earthly Davidic kingdom (Mark 1:4) and to believe on Jesus (Acts 19:4). If Israel did not repent and bear fruit they would be hewn down and cast into the fire.

      Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

      13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

      When Christ establishes his earthly kingdom the unbelievers of Israel will be gathered out of the kingdom and cast into the fire.

      Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      The unprofitable believing remnant of Israel will be cast into outer darkness and assigned a place with the hypocrites (Matthew 24:51).

      The disciples of Christ and his kingdom will be known by their fruits (Matthew 7:20) but nowhere does Paul say this about the church, the body of Christ. The church, the body is to be fruitful in good works and pleasing to the Lord (Colossians 1:10).
      I'm really confused by how you can separate clear instruction for the church and then claim that this is for "disciples of Christ and his kingdom" but then turn around and say that it is not for the church. Who do you think the church is? Your making a separation where none exists

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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I'm really confused by how you can separate clear instruction for the church and then claim that this is for "disciples of Christ and his kingdom" but then turn around and say that it is not for the church. Who do you think the church is? Your making a separation where none exists
      Our doctrine and instructions for the church are found in the epistles of Paul.

      All scripture is for our learning (Romans 15:4).

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      Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
      Our doctrine and instructions for the church are found in the epistles of Paul.

      All scripture is for our learning (Romans 15:4).
      How did you come up with that? The entire Bible holds our instruction and doctrine.

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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      How did you come up with that? The entire Bible holds our instruction and doctrine.

      We are told to rightly divide scripture (2 Timothy 2:15) and that verse entails being an approved wokman knowing how we should function.

      We can learn from the entire Bible but we need to know who God was dealing with and determine whether it is for us today.

      If we were to follow the whole Bible and obey and teach that everything is for us then do animals atone for sin ? compare Leviticus 16:27 and Hebrews 10:4
      Should we preach to all or just Israel? compare Matthew 10:5-6 and Titus 2:11

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
      We are told to rightly divide scripture (2 Timothy 2:15) and that verse entails being an approved wokman knowing how we should function.

      We can learn from the entire Bible but we need to know who God was dealing with and determine whether it is for us today.

      If we were to follow the whole Bible and obey and teach that everything is for us then do animals atone for sin ? compare Leviticus 16:27 and Hebrews 10:4
      Should we preach to all or just Israel? compare Matthew 10:5-6 and Titus 2:11
      As a believer in the New Covenant which Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, I interpret the Old in the light of the New, but I don't discount it. So, of course, animal sacrifices are no longer appropriate because Jesus became our eternal sacrifice. That doesn't though discount the commands in the Bible that are still appropriate today such as the ten commandments.
      You are suggesting that nothing in the New Testament besides Paul's writings are directed towards us is dangerously close to being heretical and not consistent with what most of the church teaches

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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      As a believer in the New Covenant which Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, I interpret the Old in the light of the New, but I don't discount it. So, of course, animal sacrifices are no longer appropriate because Jesus became our eternal sacrifice. That doesn't though discount the commands in the Bible that are still appropriate today such as the ten commandments.
      You are suggesting that nothing in the New Testament besides Paul's writings are directed towards us is dangerously close to being heretical and not consistent with what most of the church teaches
      The rest of the Bible is given for us but not all is to us.

      The ten commandments are not done away with but are there to show sin (Romans 3:20) and are fulfilled in Christ (Romans 13:9-10)

      Should we preach to all or just Israel? compare Matthew 10:5-6 and Titus 2:11 Could you please tell me how you respond to this

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      Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
      The rest of the Bible is given for us but not all is to us.

      The ten commandments are not done away with but are there to show sin (Romans 3:20) and are fulfilled in Christ (Romans 13:9-10)

      Should we preach to all or just Israel? compare Matthew 10:5-6 and Titus 2:11 Could you please tell me how you respond to this
      Absolutely, Jesus ministry was first to the Jewish people when he was on the earth. He gave them the first chance to respond just as Paul did. Paul usually started his ministry in the synagogue. When they did not respond he went to the Gentiles.

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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      Absolutely, Jesus ministry was first to the Jewish people when he was on the earth. He gave them the first chance to respond just as Paul did. Paul usually started his ministry in the synagogue. When they did not respond he went to the Gentiles.
      Your response shows how it is decided that by rightly dividing scripture Matthew 10:5-6 is not for us to obey.....the Bible is progressive in revelation. This is the same way I said Paul was given doctrine for the church, the body of Christ today.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
      Your response shows how it is decided that by rightly dividing scripture Matthew 10:5-6 is not for us to obey.....the Bible is progressive in revelation. This is the same way I said Paul was given doctrine for the church, the body of Christ today.
      Is there a reason your only mentioning Paul and not Peter or John or Luke?

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