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    Christian Theology - Thread: The christian response to global warming

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      You're kinda roaming all over the place with your complaints now, aren't you? Supposedly, your own choice of topic was global warming.
      Nope. the post you highlighted mentions earth warming. How is that "roaming all over the place"?

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      Capitalism is a great thing and I understand the positive win win it's exactly why we have advanced in so many breakthroughs in overall life expectancy and comfortable living... but should conservatives just ignore statistics? Should we just allow national debt to drown our future generations? When we have other options? Big Pharma can change, Insurance can change, education can change, energy can change ALL without socialism.. my point is greed in high places and it's obvious, I also believe our presence here effects the planet (our environment) many studies prove this. So they both point to Sin, I can recycle and reuse all the day long but I can't trust others to do it so my little achievements do not benefit the whole, although it saves me some money like you said, but free energy used the correct way would be more efficient regardless if it slows down climate change or not.
      All sorts of things can change without as fundamental a change as shifting to a totally different system. The trouble we have now isn't so much capitalism as the kind of corporate cronyism where those at the bottom face the ravages of capitalism while those at the top are cushioned thanks to having too much government on hand to regulate competition out of the market. It's a nice place to be where you can get laws written to create a huge regulatory barrier to new market entrants, where you can privatise profits while socialising losses, where you can take big risks knowing that if you win you win and if you lose the government takes money from everybody to bail you out so you can roll the dice again. None of this can be considered free market capitalism.

      I know this is mixing concepts a little here but small government doesn't involve a huge national debt. The country survived for almost 200 years before breaking the link between the dollar and hard, tangible commodities (specifically gold). It survived just fine with prices slowly declining over time, where if you didn't need something you didn't buy it yet. Next year the price will be a little cheaper, because someone figured out how to make it for less and it was still every bit as good. Now we're chasing everlasting growth and things are made to be thrown away, usually by the companies that gush about their environmental credentials, while they make things designed to last one month longer than the warranty and of course the whole thing isn't user-servicable so you pretty much have to send it to the landfill.

      Many things could change, and probably would change in a truly free market. But when regulations keep new players out of the market, however noble those regulations may appear, the result is the sort of thing we see now. When an Epi-pen costs a few bucks to make and the company that makes them can hike the price from $300 to $600, what stops a new player entering the market and selling the thing that costs them $5 for maybe $100? Chances are it's regulation - the rules are worded so as to appear to protect the little people (you know, can't have some unregulated entity producing something as important as an Epi-pen, or insulin, or whatever else is priced at some silly level) but actually does more to protect vested interests (because, you know, can't have some newfangled Johnny-come-lately showing up and undercutting us).

      Education is lazy, they do not teach you about the real life they tell us questionable history and tell us about greek gods and basic math... Imagine if they taught hospitality and medical fundamentals by graduation, I went to medical school and if you haven't noticed in Hospitals they treat everyone accordingly down to what generation they are and what religion they are... it's the most polite and sanest education I ever received...
      I've never spent any meaningful time in a US hospital, my experience is limited to a couple of trips to the ER for matters that were dealt with there and then and I was out within an hour or so.

      You're right about education, it teaches all sorts of useless things while not teaching people what matters. It increasingly fails to teach people how to think, while teaching them what to think, thereby making sure they'll be ideally suited to shout at people on social media while not having the faintest idea how to explain why they think a certain way. Of course the people who can't explain why they think a certain way make ideal serfs because they'll never question much of anything, they just know that anyone who has a different view must be wrong and ostracise them for being wrong. If kids can come out of school and have no idea how to balance a bank account, how a credit card works, how to create and manage a basic household budget and the like, they are set up to fail. Small wonder credit card debt is out of control, and the chances are many of the people with crushing debts can barely even understand what happened to them.

      we have no clue how long until Christ returns but I feel we got the attitude of "so what" when it would change the world if conservatives would unite with modernizing the environment with much cleaner air and less hostility. Jesus put hypocrites in their place but he always had a special divine understanding of how a human should behave towards other humans, I just worry so often that Christianity for the most part is losing it's senses.. I surprise atheist all the time when I tell them about what Jesus himself actually spoke and taught, I tell them how he went around answering questions in beautiful parables and he would only speak doom and gloom to those hypocrites full of pride, how he would heal the sick and comfort the poor who are far from perfect and who were sinners...
      This is very true. Sadly many people prefer to point out how Jesus supports their personal political stance rather than looking at what he actually taught. It's easy to come up with "10 reasons why Jesus would vote (the way I vote)" but you probably don't have to look very hard to find "10 reasons why Jesus would vote (the other way)" if you're willing to be intellectually honest. It's easier to modify Jesus to make him more like me (and therefore make me appear more Christlist) than it is to modify me to become more like Jesus and genuinely become more Christlike.

      I get the impression that, if we were to borrow the words spoken to the woman caught in adultery, "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more", and look at how this is applied today, it seems that those on the left are quick to pull the "neither do I condemn you" and act as if everything is OK, while those on the right are more prone to pull the "go and sin no more" while condemning the person for their past sin. It's like a doctor who either looks at a sick patient and says "no, you're fine just as you are, off you go", or who tells the sick patient to get better and then come in for an appointment. Both are useless.

      So my expression on climate change is that regardless we all know that something is deeply troubling globally, dead fish whales beaching, earthquakes, fires, pigs jumping off cliffs, blood rain and rivers, volcanos, ground breaking open, massive surge of hurricanes floods and tropical storms, etc.. and yes we may see it all because we are overloaded with world wide information but it's still right there in the bible that we would experience "knowing and hearing of" these things, I believe it's now that it was speaking of.
      And no wonder, Christianity is luke warm, persecutions of Christians are every else but here yet we complain and throw stones at sinners..

      Meh.. *sips tea calmly*
      We certainly aren't doing a great job of looking after the planet. Regardless of the issue of carbon emissions and what, if any, effect they might have on the climate we know that dumping plastics everywhere is bad, we know that polluting everything is bad, and we know that the earth is struggling under the weight of the pollution. One question that always needs to be considered when looking at things like natural disasters is whether they are actually becoming more frequent, whether they have always happened but social media spreads word like wildfire, whether they always happened but human activity has created a bigger impact (coastal storms are less of an issue when the coast isn't lined with expensive oceanfront property), and to what extent nature is balanced and human activity has simply unbalanced it (e.g. nature's design often provides for drainage for increased rainfall but humans paving over runoff areas can result in water flowing downhill faster, causing flooding elsewhere).

      My concern with pointing at all sorts of things as if they were proof that The End in an escatological sense is just around the corner is that it causes a loss of credibility. I remember around 1990 there was a lot of talk about the "signs of the end" that were coming and how they were all around us, and yet here we are nearly 30 years later . Even in Paul's day there were people who thought the end would be "any day now" so that's nothing new. Too much focus on The End in an eschatological sense isn't helpful, not least because it makes it more likely that people will ignore the concept of The End in a personal sense. Whether this earth lasts another week or another million years, none of us has a cast-iron guarantee that we will wake up tomorrow morning. If we fuss over every little thing as a "sign o' the times" then each passing prediction that proves wrong makes us look silly.

      Of course every person like that guy who spouts such utter nonsense is like the boy who cried wolf. Why should anyone listen to us if we keep making random predictions that always prove to be wrong?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      All sorts of things can change without as fundamental a change as shifting to a totally different system. The trouble we have now isn't so much capitalism as the kind of corporate cronyism where those at the bottom face the ravages of capitalism while those at the top are cushioned thanks to having too much government on hand to regulate competition out of the market. It's a nice place to be where you can get laws written to create a huge regulatory barrier to new market entrants, where you can privatise profits while socialising losses, where you can take big risks knowing that if you win you win and if you lose the government takes money from everybody to bail you out so you can roll the dice again. None of this can be considered free market capitalism.

      I know this is mixing concepts a little here but small government doesn't involve a huge national debt. The country survived for almost 200 years before breaking the link between the dollar and hard, tangible commodities (specifically gold). It survived just fine with prices slowly declining over time, where if you didn't need something you didn't buy it yet. Next year the price will be a little cheaper, because someone figured out how to make it for less and it was still every bit as good. Now we're chasing everlasting growth and things are made to be thrown away, usually by the companies that gush about their environmental credentials, while they make things designed to last one month longer than the warranty and of course the whole thing isn't user-servicable so you pretty much have to send it to the landfill.

      Many things could change, and probably would change in a truly free market. But when regulations keep new players out of the market, however noble those regulations may appear, the result is the sort of thing we see now. When an Epi-pen costs a few bucks to make and the company that makes them can hike the price from $300 to $600, what stops a new player entering the market and selling the thing that costs them $5 for maybe $100? Chances are it's regulation - the rules are worded so as to appear to protect the little people (you know, can't have some unregulated entity producing something as important as an Epi-pen, or insulin, or whatever else is priced at some silly level) but actually does more to protect vested interests (because, you know, can't have some newfangled Johnny-come-lately showing up and undercutting us).



      I've never spent any meaningful time in a US hospital, my experience is limited to a couple of trips to the ER for matters that were dealt with there and then and I was out within an hour or so.

      You're right about education, it teaches all sorts of useless things while not teaching people what matters. It increasingly fails to teach people how to think, while teaching them what to think, thereby making sure they'll be ideally suited to shout at people on social media while not having the faintest idea how to explain why they think a certain way. Of course the people who can't explain why they think a certain way make ideal serfs because they'll never question much of anything, they just know that anyone who has a different view must be wrong and ostracise them for being wrong. If kids can come out of school and have no idea how to balance a bank account, how a credit card works, how to create and manage a basic household budget and the like, they are set up to fail. Small wonder credit card debt is out of control, and the chances are many of the people with crushing debts can barely even understand what happened to them.



      This is very true. Sadly many people prefer to point out how Jesus supports their personal political stance rather than looking at what he actually taught. It's easy to come up with "10 reasons why Jesus would vote (the way I vote)" but you probably don't have to look very hard to find "10 reasons why Jesus would vote (the other way)" if you're willing to be intellectually honest. It's easier to modify Jesus to make him more like me (and therefore make me appear more Christlist) than it is to modify me to become more like Jesus and genuinely become more Christlike.

      I get the impression that, if we were to borrow the words spoken to the woman caught in adultery, "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more", and look at how this is applied today, it seems that those on the left are quick to pull the "neither do I condemn you" and act as if everything is OK, while those on the right are more prone to pull the "go and sin no more" while condemning the person for their past sin. It's like a doctor who either looks at a sick patient and says "no, you're fine just as you are, off you go", or who tells the sick patient to get better and then come in for an appointment. Both are useless.



      We certainly aren't doing a great job of looking after the planet. Regardless of the issue of carbon emissions and what, if any, effect they might have on the climate we know that dumping plastics everywhere is bad, we know that polluting everything is bad, and we know that the earth is struggling under the weight of the pollution. One question that always needs to be considered when looking at things like natural disasters is whether they are actually becoming more frequent, whether they have always happened but social media spreads word like wildfire, whether they always happened but human activity has created a bigger impact (coastal storms are less of an issue when the coast isn't lined with expensive oceanfront property), and to what extent nature is balanced and human activity has simply unbalanced it (e.g. nature's design often provides for drainage for increased rainfall but humans paving over runoff areas can result in water flowing downhill faster, causing flooding elsewhere).

      My concern with pointing at all sorts of things as if they were proof that The End in an escatological sense is just around the corner is that it causes a loss of credibility. I remember around 1990 there was a lot of talk about the "signs of the end" that were coming and how they were all around us, and yet here we are nearly 30 years later . Even in Paul's day there were people who thought the end would be "any day now" so that's nothing new. Too much focus on The End in an eschatological sense isn't helpful, not least because it makes it more likely that people will ignore the concept of The End in a personal sense. Whether this earth lasts another week or another million years, none of us has a cast-iron guarantee that we will wake up tomorrow morning. If we fuss over every little thing as a "sign o' the times" then each passing prediction that proves wrong makes us look silly.

      Of course every person like that guy who spouts such utter nonsense is like the boy who cried wolf. Why should anyone listen to us if we keep making random predictions that always prove to be wrong?
      I enjoy reading your responses Tango!
      I do believe the world is shifting gears and that alone can be frightening, such rapid change from one generation to another can set off an alarming and threatening feeling almost like a bewilderment vibe.
      My grampa used to tell my dad when he was young that the end is near, he was raised a farmer and lived his whole life farming, no tv, maybe a radio to listen to the Pope for the first time and stories but anyway he told my dad that his world absolutely flipped when he heard a roar and witnessed flying machines soaring above his head leaving him shocked and frightened, very alien to him... now today that terrifying experience is a daily experience. It would be interesting to be able to go back and record every natural disaster and compare it to todays records just to see if this has always been the case.
      I feel it actually always has been the case now that I think about it, I mean there are islands on old maps that just disappeared so maybe there was a sudden melting of ice somewhere that sunk em that was never recorded.
      Maybe its a subtle hint that when "news" or "gossip" is increased and heightened that perhaps its about time to emphasise the importance of spiritual communion with one another before the chatter drives us all mad and we start forgetting how to civilize as decent and Godly human beings..?
      I mean the roman era went completely sideways with death arenas and public persecution of Christians, I can at least say with confidence that our state is less barbaric than that, yet we are hearing the chatter approaching more violently than before (or so it seems) and so here we are once again in pursuit of strengthening our bond in the Body of Christ.
      I feel better now lol thanks

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      I enjoy reading your responses Tango!
      I do believe the world is shifting gears and that alone can be frightening, such rapid change from one generation to another can set off an alarming and threatening feeling almost like a bewilderment vibe.
      Things are certainly changing, technology is moving on and sometimes it does seem bewildering. The critical thing to remember is that change is nothing new, it happens all the time and people have always resisted it or felt bewildered by it, while some embrace it.

      My grampa used to tell my dad when he was young that the end is near, he was raised a farmer and lived his whole life farming, no tv, maybe a radio to listen to the Pope for the first time and stories but anyway he told my dad that his world absolutely flipped when he heard a roar and witnessed flying machines soaring above his head leaving him shocked and frightened, very alien to him... now today that terrifying experience is a daily experience. It would be interesting to be able to go back and record every natural disaster and compare it to todays records just to see if this has always been the case.
      Sometimes a change makes a big difference - as you say going from peace and quiet to loud flying machines overhead must have been a shock. Likewise recent changes in computer technology are concerning because of implications regarding manipulation, privacy etc. It's a good reason to limit time spent online because what social media tells us is true may not be what is actually true - I think it was Joseph Goebbels who was quoted as saying that if you repeat a lie often enough people come to accept it as truth.

      I feel it actually always has been the case now that I think about it, I mean there are islands on old maps that just disappeared so maybe there was a sudden melting of ice somewhere that sunk em that was never recorded.
      Curiously, scientists who tell us that rising sea levels will end life as we know it as the same scientists who tell us that the earth was once a huge land mass that split apart into the continents we now know. Apparently the temperature rising a couple of degrees will end life as we know it, while land masses breaking apart and drifting across the oceans didn't. Funny old world.

      Maybe its a subtle hint that when "news" or "gossip" is increased and heightened that perhaps its about time to emphasise the importance of spiritual communion with one another before the chatter drives us all mad and we start forgetting how to civilize as decent and Godly human beings..?
      News and gossip are one thing, the notion of a "viral meme" is something quite different. If you take a scan over a site like Facebook it probably won't be very long before you come across a meme trying to turn a complex political matter into something as simple as a one-liner. Sometimes they point out an absurdity in the rules - like the one showing a car crashed into a tree with the text "when you're driving down the street and your license expires" - it is rather silly that a driving license that expired yesterday isn't necessarily considered to be a valid form of ID, or indeed valid proof that the holder is fit to drive. Often a meme with a more political slant is about virtue signalling and demonstrating membership of this tribe over that tribe rather than anything else.

      Take two memes I've seen as examples. One was posted by a vocal left-wing person I know and said "instead of calling it gun control, why don't we call it massacre prevention?". Sure, call it what you want, it won't change anything. You could ban motor vehicles and call it "interstate pile-up prevention". You could understand that an estimated 100,000,000 people own firearms and a tiny fraction of them commit atrocities - if anything the number of firearm owners who cause deaths with their firearms is probably less than the number of motor vehicle owners who cause deaths with their vehicles. You could talk about intent but it doesn't make a lot of difference to the guy who is dead - the person killed by the nutter shooting up the local Wal-Mart is just as dead as the pedestrian who got hit by a driver paying more attention to their phone than the road. The other showed Donald Trump being thanked by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for his contributions to an African-American scholarship fund and wondering why the Democrats are calling him racist now. Except what did the poster actually show? Maybe it was as described, but all that is clear is that the three men are in one picture - for all the casual observer knows it could have been Trump being taken to task by Al Sharpton over some racial injustice, whether real or imagined. The picture may or may not show what it says it shows and, without doing more digging than I'm inclined to do, there's no way of knowing for sure. But both memes serve as virtue signals - the first lets everybody know that the poster supports gun control, even if they aren't willing to put much thought into their stance beyond "guns bad" while the second makes it clear to all that the poster supports Trump. Neither is likely to change anybody's mind, they are little more than the online equivalent of wearing your membership card (to a political party, pressure group, whatever) on a chain around your neck for everybody to see.

      For good measure the way social media increasingly works is that it either wants to annoy you so you'll engage with posts, or show you the things you want to see. Either way you're not getting an accurate representation of what real people think out there. It sometimes seems like it's almost impossible to figure what the public at large think about something - even the people who supposedly do that sort of thing professionally struggle. Look at the polls leading up to the 2016 presidential election - in every poll except the one that mattered it was clear that Hillary Clinton was going to win and the only question was the scale of her win. Then the one poll that actually mattered turned everything on its head.

      I mean the roman era went completely sideways with death arenas and public persecution of Christians, I can at least say with confidence that our state is less barbaric than that, yet we are hearing the chatter approaching more violently than before (or so it seems) and so here we are once again in pursuit of strengthening our bond in the Body of Christ.
      Even without the bond in the body of Christ it's good to look at issues and discuss rationally. Even without the common label of "Christian" if we can't express our thoughts and opinions, explain why we think what we think, listen to others with different views explaining what they think and why, and discuss the relative merits of each argument, all we do is fall into the trap of thinking there are only two ways. Then instead of seeking common ground, instead of trying to figure out whether this exception or that provision could be made, we fall into little more than "my side good, your side bad" and end up being part of the problem.

      We might disagree on all sorts of issues - recent topics here have included the border wall, gun control, healthcare reform and the like. Many of these are complex issues that aren't the kind of thing that can be reduced to simple one-liners. In theory we should be able to discuss different opinions on all these things without resorting to name-calling or straw man arguments or the like. As Christians we should be held to a higher standard still - Jesus said the world would know we were his disciples if we loved one another. We can love without agreeing, but if our disagreements aren't done in the context of love something is wrong. As a poster I greatly respected on another site I used years ago once put it, we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

      I feel better now lol thanks
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      Nope. the post you highlighted mentions earth warming. How is that "roaming all over the place"?
      You also referred to the "amount of trash in the ocean" and to several undefined concerns which you described as not taking "care of the garden" and mankind allegedly having "run things into the ground."

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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      Nope. the post you highlighted mentions earth warming. How is that "roaming all over the place"?
      You also referred to the "amount of trash in the ocean" and to several undefined concerns which you described as not taking "care of the garden" and mankind allegedly having "run things into the ground."

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      You also referred to the "amount of trash in the ocean" and to several undefined concerns which you described as not taking "care of the garden" and mankind allegedly having "run things into the ground."
      Yes, which has to do with the issue of stewardship. Our lack of care of this world that God gave man the responsibility of in the garden. I am equating "global warming" with the fact that mankind has not done a good job with its task of stewardship.

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      Another thought about environmental issues. We should be good stewards of the planet God gave us. We shouldn't focus on what is created to the extent we lose sight of the creator.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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