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    1. #1
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
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      Not many identify the name of Jesus with forgiveness

      My friend Forgiven (she's returned here as @Forgiven1) and I were once removed from a Christian social site similar to MySpace for telling the members that Jesus forgives their sins. You see, people don't identify Jesus with forgiveness. There was actually a poll I read about (I don't have the link) but only 13% of the people polled identified the name of Jesus with forgiveness. That's a sad number.

      Even in Christian forums we have people who don't believe that their sins are forgiven because of Jesus and feel the need to live a sinless life in order to prove themselves worthy to God to try to gain eternal life. What happened there? Why isn't Jesus' death believed or trusted in? Why aren't churches showering their congregations with the Gospel that because of Jesus God forgives them?

      The way we are accepted by God is through Jesus. Not of ourselves lest we boast. I know that's not a direct quote but it shows that if you strive to gain something from God through your efforts that you aren't trusting in what God has already done for you at the cross.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus


      1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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    3. #2
      zecryphon_nomdiv's Avatar
      zecryphon_nomdiv is offline Prodigy Member
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      There's a lot of reasons we could possibly point to as the reason Jesus isn't synonymous with forgiveness. The Semi-Pelagian heresy is probably the biggest one in my mind. Then there's reason. It doesn't make logical sense to people that one person's death could pay for the sins of the whole world and that any person would be willing to do that. Plus people are being told they have to work their way to heaven, we have a thread going right now on this site that claims as much.

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    5. #3
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
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      Quote Originally Posted by zecryphon_nomdiv View Post
      There's a lot of reasons we could possibly point to as the reason Jesus isn't synonymous with forgiveness. The Semi-Pelagian heresy is probably the biggest one in my mind. Then there's reason. It doesn't make logical sense to people that one person's death could pay for the sins of the whole world and that any person would be willing to do that. Plus people are being told they have to work their way to heaven, we have a thread going right now on this site that claims as much.
      The semi-pelagian heresy bothers me a lot because they don't want to accept that God just doesn't forgive random sins. All sins are forgiven because of the cross. So for a person to say he needs to be obedient to gain eternal life with God isn't looking to Jesus or the cross where their disobedience is forgiven. Obedience is to be faithful to God. That's what God wants from us.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus


      1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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    7. #4
      zecryphon_nomdiv's Avatar
      zecryphon_nomdiv is offline Prodigy Member
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      Well we can close the thread, since we've figured it out.

    8. #5
      MennoSota's Avatar
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      Two things: First, I'm not sure that people here know what semi-pelagianism is, or they view it inaccurately.
      Second, to say God forgives everyone is the view of unlimited atonement, which is...a semi-pelagian view.
      God does forgive everyone who has faith and repents of sin, but only those whom God has chosen to become sheep will believe. Those not chosen will not believe. Their sins will not be forgiven.
      God does all the work in choosing whom to adopt and whom he will forgive. He has that Sovereign right, which no one else has. He condemns whom He wills (justly) and He forgives whom He wills (graciously).

    9. #6
      zecryphon_nomdiv's Avatar
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      Are you seriously going to hikack this thread to promote Limited Atonement?
      Last edited by zecryphon_nomdiv; 07-10-2019 at 07:48 PM.

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    11. #7
      hedrick is offline Junior Member
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      Yes, you’ve identified a big deal. This site doesn’t have enough members for this to be so visible, but at a larger site, it seems like half the people think they’re going to be damned because they can’t stop thinking impure thoughts. (In many cases I doubt that these are sins at all, but they usually aren’t specific enough to answer that.)

      It sounds like Luther’s experience all over again. You have to repent from every sin, and you can never be sure you’re sincere enough or remember them all.

      But people are bothered that if you don’t require that, you give a license to sin. There are also doctrinal issues. Paul in 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21 gives an impressively long list of sins that keep you from “inheriting the Kingdom of God.” Jesus also shows people being judged for their actions (or lack of actions).

      But Jesus also says that every sin except one will be forgiven (not can be forgiven if you repent right, but will be). Even if you do the same thing 7 times a day.

      It’s easy to see why people disagree on the answer (thus damning us all, since dissension is one of the things on Paul’s list).

      My reading of Jesus is that we should take seriously his teachings about unlimited forgiveness, and assume that the people in his parables about judgement aren’t his followers. Indeed both Jesus and Paul seem to classify people into those who follow Jesus and those who are opposed. Jesus uses the term “sinners” to refer to those who oppose. Paul explicitly and Jesus implicitly are certainly aware that even followers sin.

      So what about Paul’s sin lists? Both of them say that people who do those things won’t “inherit the Kingdom of God.” Paul’s list is impressively long when you join 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21. (The wording is the same; there’s no justification for taking only 1 Cor 6:9.)

      I took a look at how Paul uses “Kingdom of God.” Outside of those passages, with one possible exception, he uses it for the presence of Christ’s way of life now. Particularly in 1 Cor 6:9, he is talking about the church. I think his point is that these things prevent them, individually but particularly as a church, from embodying the Kingdom. If you look at the two lists together, and take them as showing who will be damned, it seems like no one is missed. Using Internet forums seems particularly dangerous: “enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy." The term "inherit" is interesting. A lot of people seem to read it as getting into the Kingdom when we die. But people who are alive inherit from someone who has died. Like Jesus, in particular. See Gal 3:18, and a few other passages less explicitly. See Rom 6 for how that happens.

      Some of the problem in the church may be doctrinal. I agree that semi-Pelagianism seem common. But in some cases I get the impression that people really want to insist that gays can’t be saved, and more generally think that “liberal” Christians are removing all standards. I think this has backed up into their theology.

      It used to be that Protestants commonly defended the idea that we were judged entirely on faith, and that we could trust that God would work in those with faith to bring them around. Over the last decade or so, that viewpoint has almost completely disappeared from discussions.
      Last edited by hedrick; 07-10-2019 at 07:34 PM.

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    13. #8
      atpollard is offline Veteran Member
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      Let’s also be honest that a lot of people have reason to not feel forgiven ... a lot of people choose not to repent and some make excuses why it is not a sin needing repentance. The Pharisees didn’t associate Jesus with the forgiveness of their sins either.

      Should the two women married to each other that attend our church in spite of the fact that our church teaches that homosexuality is a sin (we just don’t stone homosexuals, or drug addicts or people with criminal records either) feel that Jesus has forgiven their ongoing lifestyle choice?

    14. #9
      MennoSota's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zecryphon_nomdiv View Post
      Are you seriously going to hikack this thread to promote Limited Atonement?
      No, I am pointing out that the Sovereign God has the full authority to forgive or not forgive as He so wills. Thus, not all humans are forgiven of their sins.
      God is quite clear on this issue. Humans still fight against God and His supreme authority to do as He so chooses.

    15. #10
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
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      Let's talk about what I want to talk about...the topic: Not many identify the name of Jesus with forgiveness. So back on to my topic or I'll start deleting off topic posts here.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus


      1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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