Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

Josiah said:

Is (water) Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? A ritualistic act that God cannot use for anything? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?


In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual.

IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are many Scriptures, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...


Note....

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, (water) baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century

Click to expand...

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?" Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.



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MennoSota said:

Josiah said:

Is (water) Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? A ritualistic act that God cannot use for anything? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?


In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual.

IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT
and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are many Scriptures, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...


Note....

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, (water) baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century





@MennoSota;


If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.[/SIZE]



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Click to expand...

Your job is to show that baptism does something


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Click to expand...

I quoted many Scriptures.... and many early Christians.

You have stated repeatedly that (water) baptism does nothing (a foundational Anabaptist/Baptist dogma)

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?"

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered. IF you've got it, post it. Or perhaps here TOO, yet again, simply parrot the Anabaptist position and evade any substantiation, evade Scripture, evade 1500+ years of universal Christian faith?





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MennoSota said:

Josiah said:

I quoted many Scriptures.... and many early Christians. Read the opening post.

You have stated repeatedly that (water) baptism does nothing (a foundational Anabaptist/Baptist dogma)

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?"

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered. IF you've got it, post it. Or perhaps here TOO, yet again, simply parrot the Anabaptist position and evade any substantiation, evade Scripture, evade 1500+ years of universal Christian faith?


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Click to expand...

God chooses us. God adopts us. God places us into Christ. Is that supernatural

Click to expand...

Yes. I believe GOD does it, and God is (by definition) supernatural.


You simply fall back on the Anabaptist assumption. Rather than respond to the opening post, rather than presenting your list of Scriptures and early Christians, you (who claims to be a monergist!!!) fall back on the rationale of the radically synergistic Anabaptists who invent all the baptist dogmas you endlessly (but perfectly) parrot. These new baptism inventions they created are all to make Baptism "fit" with their radical synergism. Thus your "magic" and "anti-supernational" point. Synergist believe that PEOPLE (in a very natural way) make the right choice - and this requires they be old and smart and informed enough to do it; THEY do it, not God - thus it is not "magic" or "supernatural." IF you were a radical synergist, this would all be consistent but since you claim to be a monergist (one who even accepts IRRESISTABLE Grace!!!!) it only shows you haven't thought through your own position, you haven't realized how inconsistent (as well as unbiblical) your Anabaptist dogmas are with your monergism and Calvinism.


Now, IF you have a list of Scriptures to put up next to mine - POST THEM! Scriptures about (water) Baptism that show it is inert, it is ineffectual, it "does nothing" (as you have stated). IF you have a list of early Christians who believed that (water) Baptism is just "an outward symbol of an inner accomplishment" to counter the quotes I gave - POST THEM.




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