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    Christian Theology - Thread: Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

    1. #11
      Albion's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      He was the very first man into Paradise
      That depends on what we think Paradise means, I suppose.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      As with much else it's important not to draw conclusions that are hugely far-reaching based on one example. The thief was in a place where he repented but there was no way anyone was going to baptise him between his repentance and his death. Given the choice between being baptised and being crucified to get out of baptism, I think I'll take the dunking. That said, I think it's important to consider the thief as a counterbalance to the notion that we absolutely, positively, must be baptised without exception.
      Well, not only that but he was also speaking with God face to face. No one we know today has had that experience.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      I think this is an area where it's important to maintain perspective on both sides.

      Jesus told the disciples to go into the world, preaching the gospel and baptising. The call to "repent and be baptised" suggests the two need to go together (and, further, that the baptism should follow the repentance rather than necessary occurring some time afterwards). I don't have the reference to hand (I think it's in Acts) where Paul baptised a eunuch who said something like "here is water, why shouldn't I be baptised?" which supports the notion that this is the right thing to do.

      On the other hand I think it strays into potentially dangerous theological territory to conclude that God can only operate if we are treated with water in a particular fashion. Throw in the way different denominations handle baptism, whether it is intended for adults or children, whether it is by sprinkling or by full immersion, and the whole thing turns from a minor denominational disagreement into something far more substantial. If baptism by full immersion is required then baptism by sprinkling is clearly inadequate, so those who are so "baptised" cannot be considered to have been baptised at all. Children who are sprinkled at the ripe old age of a few months cannot be considered to be baptised. At least using human logic it isn't so serious if the intention is the other way - if Scriptural baptism requires little more than the application of some water then those who have been fully immersed qualify by virtue of having had a larger quantity of water applied to them.

      And of course we also have the story of the thief who repented on the cross, who couldn't exactly ask if he could be taken down and baptised before being hung back on his cross, and yet Jesus assured him of a place in paradise. I think that man's example is a pretty strong indication that a place in paradise is not contingent on baptism, however the word "baptism" is interpreted.

      Tango,

      No one holds that God cannot save if Baptism is not administered. It would be MY position that GOD is not bound to baptism (and yes, the Thief on the Cross would be a prime example.... I'd also mention every believer before Christ instituted baptism - including Mary and the Apostles). But I would hold that just because God CAN work otherwise does not prove that ergo God can NOT work via Baptism.

      I agree with you that the EXAMPLE of the Thief on the Cross does not prove baptism is irrelevant or optional (examples aren't normative at all). It ONLY shows that God is not rendered impotent if Baptism is not administered (in this case, not possible!). But the issue before us is not if God is bound to Baptism (and cannot work outside of it) but rather if Baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual or symbol that God does not employ - a mere outward symbol proving the person saved himself OR is there a valid basis for the universal belief (for 1500+ years) and majority position (for the past 500 years) that baptism can be used by God? Is the Dogma invented by the Anabaptists that Baptism is ONLY an ineffectual, inert, outward SYMBOL supported by a larger. stronger corpus of Scriptures?



      Thanks!


      -- Josiah






      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 06-12-2019 at 09:48 AM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    5. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Nice treatment of a subject that is full of land mines, but on the final paragraph, the danger is of people taking the case of the Good Thief and talking like his experience is applicable to everybody, so you can just choose to be baptized--or refuse it--as you like. I have run into this POV more often than I care to remember.
      Is water baptism a magic ordination as Lamm implies. Is it like the serpent stick that had to be destroyed because the people started to worship it as a god?

      I call people to be water baptized (immersion preferred) upon confession of faith as an act of obedience, not as a magic means of getting something from God.

    6. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I call people to be water baptized (immersion preferred) upon confession of faith as an act of obedience.

      Wrong thread. In the IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM and in the CREDOBAPTISM threads (two of the 3 dogmas invented out of thin air by the radically synergistic Anabaptists), you already stated what YOU call on people to do. You proved you can't show GOD does but that seems irrelevant to you.


      Now, read the opening post. If you have a series of Scriptures that all at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and tradition you parrot - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?" Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 06-12-2019 at 10:19 AM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    8. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Wrong thread. In the IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM and in the CREDOBAPTISM threads (two of the 3 dogmas invented out of thin air by the radically synergistic Anabaptists), you already stated what YOU call on people to do. You proved you can't show GOD does but that seems irrelevant to you.


      Now, read the opening post. If you have a series of Scriptures that all at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. If you an list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them.
      Correct thread. Think outside your box.

    9. #17
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      Please provide scripture where any writer provides an allegory between circumcision and infant baptism so as to create a covanental relationship between the two, prior to confession of faith.
      I have looked and cannot find any. It is a prevailing tradition that is rooted outside of scripture.
      The Holy Spirit, upon God granting faith by grace, baptizes the elect child of God into Christ Jesus himself. The child is seated at the throne of God because Jesus is seated at the throne of God.
      Ephesians 1:16-23 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
      Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
      1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

      Perhaps people, here, are ignorant of the Holy Spirit's role in immersing us into Christ. Perhaps the above verses will open some eyes to the Spirit's work.
      Physical, water baptism, symbolizes what the Holy Spirit has already done spiritually.

    10. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Is water baptism a magic ordination as Lamm implies. Is it like the serpent stick that had to be destroyed because the people started to worship it as a god?

      I call people to be water baptized (immersion preferred) upon confession of faith as an act of obedience, not as a magic means of getting something from God.
      Did God attach a promise concerning the serpent? Did He fulfill His promise?
      Did God attach a promise concerning the blood on the door posts? Did He fulfill His promise?

      Those are key things to look at when looking at the bible as a whole and understanding how God works.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    11. #19
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      Is water baptism a magic ordination as Lamm implies.
      Lamm did not imply any such thing.

      Next question.

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    13. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Is water baptism a magic ordination
      Was Christ Baptized in water that ALL Righteousness be Fulfilled?


      A.

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