THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

Doug

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2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Jesus, after his resurrection, spoke unto the twelve apostles of the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). The aspect of the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of was the kingdom of the Davidic covenant; the kingdom promised Israel to reign with Christ on earth (1 Chronicles 17:12 Luke 1:32). The apostles wanted to know if Jesus was about to restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

Jesus commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which was the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).

2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The apostles, filled with the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues.

2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen in verse 6, is speaking in the hearers language. Also in verses 8 and 11, tongues involves the ability given the apostles to speak and be heard in a specific language, not of their own. It was a sign given them to substantiate their ministry.

Peter, standing with the eleven, spoke in the following verse:

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Pentecost and the filling of the Holy Ghost was prophesied by Joel. This was a fulfillment of prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. This prophecy was directed to Israel, and those present were for the most part Jews.

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

In the above verses it should be noted that Peter was not addressing the newly formed church, the Body of Christ, but rather, Israel only. Peter preached Jesus as Christ and his resurrection, the gospel of the Circumcision (Galatians 2:7). The resurrection of Jesus Christ would assure the fulfillment of the future promised kingdom on earth, in which, he was raised from the dead to sit on the throne of David. The Holy Spirit will cause Israel to keep his commandments and reign and rule with him over the nations, to be a light of salvation to the Gentiles (Ezekiel 36:24-28 Revelation 20:4 Matthew 5:14).

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Peter, in the above verses, states that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Jesus rose from the dead declaring that he is the Son of God (Romans 1:4).

In verse 38 below, Peter shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of Israel, who alone can forgive the sins of the nation of Israel.

2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Peter is only offering the above promises of remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost to repentant Israel and those Gentiles who would come to God thru Israel.

2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The believers were baptized according to the commandment of the Davidic covenant announced by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2); the cleansing for the remission of sins; the recognition of the name,authority, and the idenity of Jesus. They were added to them, the church of the Kingdom to come, not the body of Christ.

2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

They sold all they had and provided to all according to the commandment to Israel by Jesus in Matthew 13:46 and Matthew 19:21.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

They were in one accord as well. The church here is not the body of Christ. The church here are the believers in Christ who were promised entrance into the kingdom on earth. The kingdom which is postponed and interrupted by our Dispensation of Grace.
 

MennoSota

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The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus. God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.
 

Andrew

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The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus. God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.
Where there are two are more gathered... Adam and Eve... nice :)
 

Josiah

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Here's the "Take"



In the Roman Catholic Church, there is this custom of referring to Pentecost as "The Birthday of the Church." I even remember a kid's birthday party when I was a kid....


WHY? Well, Jesus was the leader of the earthly church and the Proclaimer while He was on earth. But, shortly before His death, He gave the Great Commission and in a sense at least, "transfers" things to the Apostles. THEY now lead the earthly church.... THEY now are chiefly called to spread the Gospel and build the church. BUT He tells them to wait.... wait until clothed with power from on high, divine power... which the RCC teaches happened at Pentecost. THERE and THEN, Peter is the preacher, and 3000 come to faith that day as a result of that sermon. The RCC sees this as the beginning of the age of the church.


MY EVALUATION: I 'get' it, and perhaps there is some validity here, but I think it's making this too institutional. I disagree with the ecclesiology of the RCC and so this whole emphasis on the church as an institution is one I don't share, and the implied "Apostolic Succession" idea is also one I don't share. MY view is that the church exists where faith exists... and thus the church started with God's telling Adam and Eve about the Promise and the implication that they believed. Even if we restrict this to faith not simply in A Messiah but rather specifically in JESUS, then the church begins with Mary some 9 months before Christmas.




.
 

Albion

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In my opinion, too much effort goes into debunking the phrase "Birthday of the Church." Yes, we can look at those words in a number of different ways, but we are Christians, not Jews, so we are speaking of the Church of Christ...and it was on Pentecost that the Church gained its first big rush of members. They represented many lands, too. So that is a birth-day in a very real sense. That's all that is meant when the expression is used.
 

Arsenios

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The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus.
God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel
and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today
as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.

Orthodoxy regards the Unity of the Three Persons of God as the first Church
Into which we are Baptized when we are Baptized into Christ...
Christ's Ekklesia was established on earth in Power at Pentecost...
And while on earth, it is not an earthly kingdom...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Orthodoxy regards the Unity of the Three Persons of God as the first Church
Into which we are Baptized when we are Baptized into Christ...
Christ's Ekklesia was established on earth in Power at Pentecost...
And while on earth, it is not an earthly kingdom...


Arsenios

It's odd how much you worship a water ceremony and grant it mystical powers.
 

Arsenios

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It's odd how much you worship a water ceremony and grant it mystical powers.

Well, we do worship the Word of God Who gave Baptism to His Holy Body...

"Disciple all the Nations... Baptizing them..."


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Well, we do worship the Word of God Who gave Baptism to His Holy Body...

"Disciple all the Nations... Baptizing them..."


Arsenios
Not as the means by which we are entered into Christ.
If it were so, there would be no need for salvation by grace through faith. Just perform the work of baptism and you are saved and placed into Christ.
Continuing to demand works as the means by which a person merits God's favor goes entirely contrary to the gospel of grace through faith.
Be very selective as to who you choose to baptize so as not to deceive anyone into a false sense of unity with Christ.
 

Arsenios

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Here's the "Take"



In the Roman Catholic Church, there is this custom of referring to Pentecost as "The Birthday of the Church." I even remember a kid's birthday party when I was a kid....


WHY? Well, Jesus was the leader of the earthly church and the Proclaimer while He was on earth. But, shortly before His death, He gave the Great Commission and in a sense at least, "transfers" things to the Apostles. THEY now lead the earthly church.... THEY now are chiefly called to spread the Gospel and build the church. BUT He tells them to wait.... wait until clothed with power from on high, divine power... which the RCC teaches happened at Pentecost. THERE and THEN, Peter is the preacher, and 3000 come to faith that day as a result of that sermon. The RCC sees this as the beginning of the age of the church.


MY EVALUATION: I 'get' it, and perhaps there is some validity here, but I think it's making this too institutional. I disagree with the ecclesiology of the RCC and so this whole emphasis on the church as an institution is one I don't share, and the implied "Apostolic Succession" idea is also one I don't share. MY view is that the church exists where faith exists... and thus the church started with God's telling Adam and Eve about the Promise and the implication that they believed. Even if we restrict this to faith not simply in A Messiah but rather specifically in JESUS, then the church begins with Mary some 9 months before Christmas.
.

Orthodoxy often refers to it as the Birthday of the Church as well, but we then go on to say that this is a manner of speaking, because the Disciples of Christ were empowered by the Holy Spirit on this day - And the rest of the teachings of Christ were then imparted to them in the Power that they previously did not have and thereby were unable to bear... After that, martyric death was a small matter, whereas before that, it would be a great obstacle to Faith in Christ...

The Power of the Ekklesia was indeed IMPARTED to the Ekklesia this day, the Day of Pentecost following the Ascension of our Lord...

And it is in THIS Power that the Ekklesia became the Ground and Pillar of Truth, against which the gates of Hades [eg Death, the last enemy of mankind] would not prevail...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Not as the means by which we are entered into Christ.
If it were so, there would be no need for salvation by grace through faith. Just perform the work of baptism and you are saved and placed into Christ.
Continuing to demand works as the means by which a person merits God's favor goes entirely contrary to the gospel of grace through faith.
Be very selective as to who you choose to baptize so as not to deceive anyone into a false sense of unity with Christ.

Here - You can argue with Paul:

Gal 3:27
For as many of you
as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.


So read the above and tell me if Paul says we are Baptized into Christ...

Then tell me if you believe the Bible...

Then tell me if YOU believe we are Baptized into Christ...

Thank-you!


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Here - You can argue with Paul:

Gal 3:27
For as many of you
as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.


So read the above and tell me if Paul says we are Baptized into Christ...

Then tell me if you believe the Bible...

Then tell me if YOU believe we are Baptized into Christ...

Thank-you!


Arsenios

No argument with Paul. He knew, like me who learned from him, that water was not used when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ.
It's a pity you can't read the word baptize without inserting water.
 

Arsenios

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No argument with Paul. He knew, like me who learned from him, that water was not used when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ.
It's a pity you can't read the word baptize without inserting water.

And WHO did Christ command to BAPTIZE???

Tell me one more time...

How Christ commanded the Holy Spirit...

To Baptize all the Nations into Christ...

Show me that passage!


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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And WHO did Christ command to BAPTIZE???

Tell me one more time...

How Christ commanded the Holy Spirit...

To Baptize all the Nations into Christ...

Show me that passage!


Arsenios
Those who are disciples of Christ. Those whom God has already immersed into Christ. Water baptism symbolizes the fact that we died with Christ and rose with Christ and are now seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus. It is beautiful symbolism, just like the seder meal symbolizes the Passover for Jews.
 

MennoSota

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And WHO did Christ command to BAPTIZE???

Tell me one more time...

How Christ commanded the Holy Spirit...

To Baptize all the Nations into Christ...

Show me that passage!


Arsenios

Christ didn't come say "baptize all nations into me."

He said:
Go therefore and
make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Arsenios, you have twisted what Jesus said to fit your presupposition.
 

Arsenios

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Water baptism symbolizes... beautiful symbolism...

Why do you want to keep arguing with Paul?



Eph 4:4-8
There is One Body, and One Spirit,
Even as ye are called
in One Hope of your calling;
One Lord,
One Faith,
One Baptism,
One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
And through all,
And in you all.

But unto every one of us is given Grace
According to the measure of the Gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith,
When He ascended up on high,
He led captivity captive,
And He gave Gifts
Unto men.


When Paul writes that "There is ONE BAPTISM"
He is NOT writing that there are TWO BAPTISMS...
NOT One in water and one in Spirit...
NOT One by men and one by the Holy Spirit...
There is ONE Baptism, Menno...
It is hard to kick against the pricks...
Why argue against Paul?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Christ didn't come say "baptize all nations into me."

He said:
Go therefore and
make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Arsenios, you have twisted what Jesus said to fit your presupposition.
\

And WHOM did Christ command to BAPTIZE???

Tell me one more time, Menno...

How Christ commanded the Holy Spirit...

To Baptize all the Nations into Christ...

Show me that passage!


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Why do you want to keep arguing with Paul?



Eph 4:4-8
There is One Body, and One Spirit,
Even as ye are called
in One Hope of your calling;
One Lord,
One Faith,
One Baptism,
One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
And through all,
And in you all.

But unto every one of us is given Grace
According to the measure of the Gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith,
When He ascended up on high,
He led captivity captive,
And He gave Gifts
Unto men.


When Paul writes that "There is ONE BAPTISM"
He is NOT writing that there are TWO BAPTISMS...
NOT One in water and one in Spirit...
NOT One by men and one by the Holy Spirit...
There is ONE Baptism, Menno...
It is hard to kick against the pricks...
Why argue against Paul?


Arsenios
Yep,
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13

Notice, it does not say "By water we are baptized into one body."
It says "By one Spirit we are baptized into one body."
It is this specific fact that meant the thief on the cross was baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit and Jesus could say "Today you will be with me in paradise."

Why do you want to keep arguing with Paul???
 

MennoSota

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\

And WHOM did Christ command to BAPTIZE???

Tell me one more time, Menno...

How Christ commanded the Holy Spirit...

To Baptize all the Nations into Christ...

Show me that passage!


Arsenios
The symbolism of water baptism is an obedience to Jesus command. It is not required for ones salvation.
In a few weeks we will baptize 6 or 7 people who have confessed faith in Christ, exhibit that faith and are obedient to openly declaring this faith to the local body. It is a beautiful symbol of what the Holy Spirit has done.
 

Josiah

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Yep,
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13

Notice, it does not say "By water we are baptized into one body."
It says "By one Spirit we are baptized into one body."
It is this specific fact that meant the thief on the cross was baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit and Jesus could say "Today you will be with me in paradise."

Why do you want to keep arguing with Paul???


So, let me see if I understand you...

You claim to agree with the Bible that there is ONE baptism - but you speak of water baptism and spirit baptism and insist they are two different, separate things...

You claim that baptism MEANS and MANDATES the full and complete submersion of every cell under water, but that baptism has nothing to do with water at all (being submersed in it or not).

Hum....



No, the Bible does NOT say that the Thief on the Cross was baptized - by every cell of his body being immersed under water or otherwise.

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit who baptizes.... sure, some human's hands are used by the Spirit but it's the Spirit who does the baptizing. Just as some bloat may read the Bible to some unbeliever, but it is the Holy Spirit that uses those words for His purposes - it's the Spirit doing the proclaiming. I realize you want to severely limit God and stress what God cannot do if people have not yet attained the magical age of X or if people have not yet accomplished proving they already have faith, but the Bible does not so limit God's power or soverignty; the Holy Spirit moves as He wills, not as the radically synergistic Anabaptists restrict Him.
 
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