• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 41

    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

    1. #1
      Doug is offline Apprentice Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Posts
      220
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      1,704
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,741
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      98.01%
      Rep Power
      40

      THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

      2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

      Jesus, after his resurrection, spoke unto the twelve apostles of the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). The aspect of the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of was the kingdom of the Davidic covenant; the kingdom promised Israel to reign with Christ on earth (1 Chronicles 17:12 Luke 1:32). The apostles wanted to know if Jesus was about to restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

      Jesus commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which was the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).

      2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

      2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

      2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

      The apostles, filled with the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues.

      2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

      Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen in verse 6, is speaking in the hearers language. Also in verses 8 and 11, tongues involves the ability given the apostles to speak and be heard in a specific language, not of their own. It was a sign given them to substantiate their ministry.

      Peter, standing with the eleven, spoke in the following verse:

      2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

      Pentecost and the filling of the Holy Ghost was prophesied by Joel. This was a fulfillment of prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. This prophecy was directed to Israel, and those present were for the most part Jews.

      2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

      2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

      2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

      2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

      In the above verses it should be noted that Peter was not addressing the newly formed church, the Body of Christ, but rather, Israel only. Peter preached Jesus as Christ and his resurrection, the gospel of the Circumcision (Galatians 2:7). The resurrection of Jesus Christ would assure the fulfillment of the future promised kingdom on earth, in which, he was raised from the dead to sit on the throne of David. The Holy Spirit will cause Israel to keep his commandments and reign and rule with him over the nations, to be a light of salvation to the Gentiles (Ezekiel 36:24-28 Revelation 20:4 Matthew 5:14).

      2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

      2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

      Peter, in the above verses, states that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Jesus rose from the dead declaring that he is the Son of God (Romans 1:4).

      In verse 38 below, Peter shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of Israel, who alone can forgive the sins of the nation of Israel.

      2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

      Peter is only offering the above promises of remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost to repentant Israel and those Gentiles who would come to God thru Israel.

      2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

      The believers were baptized according to the commandment of the Davidic covenant announced by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2); the cleansing for the remission of sins; the recognition of the name,authority, and the idenity of Jesus. They were added to them, the church of the Kingdom to come, not the body of Christ.

      2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

      2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

      2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

      They sold all they had and provided to all according to the commandment to Israel by Jesus in Matthew 13:46 and Matthew 19:21.

      2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

      2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

      They were in one accord as well. The church here is not the body of Christ. The church here are the believers in Christ who were promised entrance into the kingdom on earth. The kingdom which is postponed and interrupted by our Dispensation of Grace.

    2. #2
      MennoSota's Avatar
      MennoSota is offline Bronze Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      6,439
      CH Cash
      27,068
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      22,519
      Level
      41
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      77.19%
      Rep Power
      520
      The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus. God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
      The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.

    3. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    4. #3
      Andrew's Avatar
      Andrew is offline Expert Member
      Moderator
      34
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      3,691
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      7,524
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      19,608
      Level
      39
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      48.19%
      Rep Power
      579
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus. God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
      The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.
      Where there are two are more gathered... Adam and Eve... nice

    5. #4
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      8,276
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      119,277
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      83,783
      Level
      69
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.51%
      Rep Power
      980
      Here's the "Take"



      In the Roman Catholic Church, there is this custom of referring to Pentecost as "The Birthday of the Church." I even remember a kid's birthday party when I was a kid....


      WHY? Well, Jesus was the leader of the earthly church and the Proclaimer while He was on earth. But, shortly before His death, He gave the Great Commission and in a sense at least, "transfers" things to the Apostles. THEY now lead the earthly church.... THEY now are chiefly called to spread the Gospel and build the church. BUT He tells them to wait.... wait until clothed with power from on high, divine power... which the RCC teaches happened at Pentecost. THERE and THEN, Peter is the preacher, and 3000 come to faith that day as a result of that sermon. The RCC sees this as the beginning of the age of the church.


      MY EVALUATION: I 'get' it, and perhaps there is some validity here, but I think it's making this too institutional. I disagree with the ecclesiology of the RCC and so this whole emphasis on the church as an institution is one I don't share, and the implied "Apostolic Succession" idea is also one I don't share. MY view is that the church exists where faith exists... and thus the church started with God's telling Adam and Eve about the Promise and the implication that they believed. Even if we restrict this to faith not simply in A Messiah but rather specifically in JESUS, then the church begins with Mary some 9 months before Christmas.




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    6. #5
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      3,472
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      17,850
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      22,680
      Level
      41
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      89.43%
      Rep Power
      669
      In my opinion, too much effort goes into debunking the phrase "Birthday of the Church." Yes, we can look at those words in a number of different ways, but we are Christians, not Jews, so we are speaking of the Church of Christ...and it was on Pentecost that the Church gained its first big rush of members. They represented many lands, too. So that is a birth-day in a very real sense. That's all that is meant when the expression is used.

    7. Likes Josiah liked this post
    8. #6
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      3,179
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      13,250
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      9,730
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      47.77%
      Rep Power
      202
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The promise started in Genesis 3. It is fulfilled in Jesus.
      God's chosen people, chosen by grace, started long before the nation of Israel
      and it goes on long after the nation of Israel became irrelevant.
      The church, therefore, started with Adam and has continued on today
      as God continues to save according to his gracious promise.
      Orthodoxy regards the Unity of the Three Persons of God as the first Church
      Into which we are Baptized when we are Baptized into Christ...
      Christ's Ekklesia was established on earth in Power at Pentecost...
      And while on earth, it is not an earthly kingdom...


      Arsenios

    9. #7
      MennoSota's Avatar
      MennoSota is offline Bronze Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      6,439
      CH Cash
      27,068
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      22,519
      Level
      41
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      77.19%
      Rep Power
      520
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Orthodoxy regards the Unity of the Three Persons of God as the first Church
      Into which we are Baptized when we are Baptized into Christ...
      Christ's Ekklesia was established on earth in Power at Pentecost...
      And while on earth, it is not an earthly kingdom...


      Arsenios
      It's odd how much you worship a water ceremony and grant it mystical powers.

    10. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    11. #8
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      3,179
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      13,250
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      9,730
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      47.77%
      Rep Power
      202
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      It's odd how much you worship a water ceremony and grant it mystical powers.
      Well, we do worship the Word of God Who gave Baptism to His Holy Body...

      "Disciple all the Nations... Baptizing them..."


      Arsenios

    12. #9
      MennoSota's Avatar
      MennoSota is offline Bronze Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      6,439
      CH Cash
      27,068
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      22,519
      Level
      41
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      77.19%
      Rep Power
      520
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Well, we do worship the Word of God Who gave Baptism to His Holy Body...

      "Disciple all the Nations... Baptizing them..."


      Arsenios
      Not as the means by which we are entered into Christ.
      If it were so, there would be no need for salvation by grace through faith. Just perform the work of baptism and you are saved and placed into Christ.
      Continuing to demand works as the means by which a person merits God's favor goes entirely contrary to the gospel of grace through faith.
      Be very selective as to who you choose to baptize so as not to deceive anyone into a false sense of unity with Christ.

    13. #10
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      3,179
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      13,250
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      9,730
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      47.77%
      Rep Power
      202
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Here's the "Take"



      In the Roman Catholic Church, there is this custom of referring to Pentecost as "The Birthday of the Church." I even remember a kid's birthday party when I was a kid....


      WHY? Well, Jesus was the leader of the earthly church and the Proclaimer while He was on earth. But, shortly before His death, He gave the Great Commission and in a sense at least, "transfers" things to the Apostles. THEY now lead the earthly church.... THEY now are chiefly called to spread the Gospel and build the church. BUT He tells them to wait.... wait until clothed with power from on high, divine power... which the RCC teaches happened at Pentecost. THERE and THEN, Peter is the preacher, and 3000 come to faith that day as a result of that sermon. The RCC sees this as the beginning of the age of the church.


      MY EVALUATION: I 'get' it, and perhaps there is some validity here, but I think it's making this too institutional. I disagree with the ecclesiology of the RCC and so this whole emphasis on the church as an institution is one I don't share, and the implied "Apostolic Succession" idea is also one I don't share. MY view is that the church exists where faith exists... and thus the church started with God's telling Adam and Eve about the Promise and the implication that they believed. Even if we restrict this to faith not simply in A Messiah but rather specifically in JESUS, then the church begins with Mary some 9 months before Christmas.
      .
      Orthodoxy often refers to it as the Birthday of the Church as well, but we then go on to say that this is a manner of speaking, because the Disciples of Christ were empowered by the Holy Spirit on this day - And the rest of the teachings of Christ were then imparted to them in the Power that they previously did not have and thereby were unable to bear... After that, martyric death was a small matter, whereas before that, it would be a great obstacle to Faith in Christ...

      The Power of the Ekklesia was indeed IMPARTED to the Ekklesia this day, the Day of Pentecost following the Ascension of our Lord...

      And it is in THIS Power that the Ekklesia became the Ground and Pillar of Truth, against which the gates of Hades [eg Death, the last enemy of mankind] would not prevail...


      Arsenios

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •