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    1. #1
      Shole is offline New Member
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      Should Religion be mingling with politics?

      What are your opinions on religion mixing with politics?
      I think they are two separated entities and that they could work on some areas together but in most of the cases the people should be put before the church(god) or anything religious, as in the people should decide not the religion what's right for the country and what's wrong.

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      MennoSota is offline Bronze Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shole View Post
      What are your opinions on religion mixing with politics?
      I think they are two separated entities and that they could work on some areas together but in most of the cases the people should be put before the church(god) or anything religious, as in the people should decide not the religion what's right for the country and what's wrong.
      If Godly people wish to run for office and God ordains that the constituency elects them, then God has placed that person for a reason.
      If Christians place their hope and faith in politicians to change a godless society, then Christians are worshipping an idol in which they have replaced God. Shepherds of the sheep are to care for and guard the sheep, not attempt to manipulate politics and forget that their God has a Sovereign plan, which may not be their plan. God often thwarts the best laid plans of men, even if they think they are right. God had the Godly King Josiah die in battle so that He might send Judah into exile. Wrap your mind around that ordained will of God.

    3. #3
      Albion's Avatar
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      I am happy to have church and state be separated in this country, but religious people have as much right to work for laws that they consider to be just and right as do non-religious people.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      I am happy to have church and state be separated in this country, but religious people have as much right to work for laws that they consider to be just and right as do non-religious people.
      I agree, we need some good Godly men and women in high official places too.
      Separation of church and state had a lot to do with the OT laws, Jews were allowed to convict religious law breakers and Rome was allowed to persecute... that's why for example, sharia law should never be adopted by the state or that old devil of old will return and the persecutions will be reinforced

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      JRT is offline Junior Member
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      theocracies have a long and extremely troubling history of suppression and persecution

    7. #6
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      In theory, no, but given the deep, deep religious background of America, we're probably one of the few countries - maybe the only one - where the two could potentially intermingle; just look, for instance, at the power (or supposed power, depending on perspective) of the Evangelical Community at present. Reading the question again, though, reminds me of a retort the Left has begun to throw at evangelicals: if you're so pious and godly, how could you vote for a thrice-married adulterer such as Donald Trump for President?

      I was asked that question recently myself and my answer was simply thus: "Because no one was voting in 2016 for a pastor in their church or for an elder or deacon or bishop; they were voting for someone for a political office and when compared to his opponent, Trump was the better candidate, warts and all." I think of it like this: there are times where God sends us a person to lead us who doesn't fit the mold of a godly leader but whose actions are most certainly righteous and godly for their time and day.

      One example, though not political, is that of Ulysses S. Grant. the man, was, pre-Civil War, a bit of a failure: finished near the middle of his class at West Point, served w/out distinction in the West and then in Mexico during the Mexican-American War, was a bit of a drunkard and swore very copiously yet when the most successful military commander on the Union side during the war. Indeed, when Lincoln was told the man loved a taste of the grape (i.e. drank) he asked for numerous barrels of whatever it was Grant drank to be sent to his other generals so that they could fight like Grant. In addition, when asked to replace him w/some Washington bureaucratic general, Lincoln is said to have opined about Grant - "I can't spare this man; he fights."
      I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

    8. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by JRT View Post
      theocracies have a long and extremely troubling history of suppression and persecution
      which, however, is not the topic of this thread.

    9. #8
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      IMO......


      1. Since ancient times, political/civil leaders have well understood how religion can help them.... and religious leaders have been eager to be associated with civil POWER. I think it most cases, religion got the short end of the proverbial stick (civil leaders just use the tools of power better than religious leaders do). Just one example: Hitler "quoted" Luther to IMPLY Luther was a racial anti-Hebrew and supported his racist hatred - to try to win over Lutherans. Luther of course knew NOTHING of Hitler's racism but.... Many a war has been fought between civil leaders USING religion as an excuse. In the USA, Republicans try to woe conservative Christians.... Democrats liberal Christians.... both like to share the podium with clergy... both pledge ON the Bible but neither give a rip what's IN the Bible.


      2. CHRISTIANS should not be hypocrites; they should not be "Sunday Morning Only" Christians. Our values, our priorities, our morality - as it impacts interpersonal relationships HERE and NOW, must take those into the voting booth. To divorce our morality from politics would simply be intentional hypocrisy. If we believe slavary morally wrong, that SHOULD have impacted the politics of people back when slavery was legal. If legal institutional and governmental segregation violated Christian morality, that SHOULD have impacted how the Christian votes. If intentional murder of innocent, defenseless pre-born children violates the morality of Christians, they SHOULD work to overturn the law that welcomes and empowers (and often pays for) that. To do anything otherwise is to be an intentional hypocrite.


      3. I don't WANT Nancy Palosi running my church or teaching religion to my son. Nor Governor Newsom. And I'm pretty sure neither wants my church running the USA or the People's Republic of California. I think we're all happier not being mingled.



      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    10. #9
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      tango is online now Bronze Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shole View Post
      What are your opinions on religion mixing with politics?
      I think they are two separated entities and that they could work on some areas together but in most of the cases the people should be put before the church(god) or anything religious, as in the people should decide not the religion what's right for the country and what's wrong.
      It depends very much on the context.

      At a personal level it's inevitable that people with any beliefs of any nature will look to vote for candidates who best represents their beliefs. Religious beliefs are just one area where people may look to choose a candidate who reflects their worldview.

      At a governmental level it becomes trickier. It's difficult to see how an elected representative can reasonable be expected not to represent the people who elected him although at the same time the representative needs to represent all of the people in their area, including the ones who voted for other candidates. It is equally hard to see how a representative who has a particular religious belief can check their beliefs at their office door, especially if something crosses their desk that they find abhorrent.

      What gets tricky is that the people we elect to lead us are humans and prone to the same kinds of bias as any other human, and yet we need to be careful that we don't end up creating some kind of de facto theocracy. The danger is not even that one holy text may end up enshrined in law, but that a small group's interpretation of that holy text may end up enshrined in law.

      A lot of people think the Bible should be a part of our law. The trouble with this approach is that if we allow one holy book to attain such a status, what happens if the demographics shift and another religion represents a majority in the country - should a minority dictate to a majority, or should the requirements of the Bible be replaced by those of the Quran or the Gita? If we argue that those of us who are the Christian majority get to impose our religion on others by force of law we lose any right to complain if, for example, Muslims become a majority and attempt to impose their religion upon us by the exact same force of law.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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      tango is online now Bronze Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      IMO......


      1. Since ancient times, political/civil leaders have well understood how religion can help them.... and religious leaders have been eager to be associated with civil POWER. I think it most cases, religion got the short end of the proverbial stick (civil leaders just use the tools of power better than religious leaders do). Just one example: Hitler "quoted" Luther to IMPLY Luther was a racial anti-Hebrew and supported his racist hatred - to try to win over Lutherans. Luther of course knew NOTHING of Hitler's racism but.... Many a war has been fought between civil leaders USING religion as an excuse. In the USA, Republicans try to woe conservative Christians.... Democrats liberal Christians.... both like to share the podium with clergy... both pledge ON the Bible but neither give a rip what's IN the Bible.


      2. CHRISTIANS should not be hypocrites; they should not be "Sunday Morning Only" Christians. Our values, our priorities, our morality - as it impacts interpersonal relationships HERE and NOW, must take those into the voting booth. To divorce our morality from politics would simply be intentional hypocrisy. If we believe slavary morally wrong, that SHOULD have impacted the politics of people back when slavery was legal. If legal institutional and governmental segregation violated Christian morality, that SHOULD have impacted how the Christian votes. If intentional murder of innocent, defenseless pre-born children violates the morality of Christians, they SHOULD work to overturn the law that welcomes and empowers (and often pays for) that. To do anything otherwise is to be an intentional hypocrite.


      3. I don't WANT Nancy Palosi running my church or teaching religion to my son. Nor Governor Newsom. And I'm pretty sure neither wants my church running the USA or the People's Republic of California. I think we're all happier not being mingled.



      .
      Good points here. I remember seeing a meme titled something like "10 reasons why Jesus would vote Democrat". No prizes for guessing the political affiliation of the author or the people who shared that one. You don't have to look very far to see a comparable "why Jesus would vote Republican" or "why Jesus would vote Libertarian" etc. Because, you know, Jesus obviously follows our little factions.

      One issue with a two-party system (although the UK has three parties it's not functionally much different in this regard) is that it's much harder to pick and choose which policies are acceptable. If you're pretty much expected to put an X in the box marked R or the box marked D, but you're in a place where you agree with the Republican desire to curb abortion but prefer the Democrat approach to universal healthcare, it immediately ceases to be as simple as "this is abhorrent, I'm voting for the other guy". Sometimes it seems that choosing where to put the X is little more than selecting the lesser of two evils.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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