ROMANS 11 WHO IS THE WILD OLIVE TREE?

Doug

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Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God is not done with unbelieving Israel.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant is believing Israel and also believing Gentiles. God has always made provision for the Gentiles to be saved through Israel.

11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The election, the Jewish and Gentile believing remnant, has obtained to righteousness by grace through faith. Unbelieving Israel has been blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel fell because of their rejection of Jesus as Christ, the Son of God. The gospel went out to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy in order to restore them.

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Israel, as can be seen in verse 19 above, would also be provoked to jealousy by a foolish nation. The foolish nation is believing Israel. The foolish nation is the remnant of believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Israel's fulness is when Israel obtains all the promises and purpose of God.

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul, in the book of Romans is addressing three existing groups:

1 unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

2 Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ who believed the gospel of Christ preached by Paul.

3 Jew and Gentile kingdom saints who are in Christ by believing the gospel of the kingdom.

In verse 13 Paul is speaking to Gentile kingdom saints. Paul is saying to the kingdom saint Gentiles (not Gentiles in the church, the body of Christ, according to Paul's gospel) that he will provoke them which are of his flesh, the unbelieving Jews, to salvation.

Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 6 and 7 above, those called are Jews or Gentiles called into the body of Christ, and Jews or Gentiles called into the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 1:2 1:24 7:18

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Verses 24 and 25 above refers to the holy nation, the little flock, the believing remnant of both Jew and Gentile.

To conclude then, the Gentiles in Romans 11:13 are Gentile kingdom saints.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

In leviticus 23:20 the bread of the firstfruits is holy. The bread is made from flour baked with leaven and offered by the priest. The leavened bread speaks of unbelieving Israel, which is also the root and branches in verse 16.

11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In verse 17 above, thou is Jew or Gentile kingdom saints, the little flock, the remnant. The remnant is the wild olive tree. The root and broken off branches are unbelieving Israel.

It can be seen from John 15 below that broken off branches refers to unfruitful, unbelieving Israel.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In Matthew below the kingdom will be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to the fruitful nation of Israel. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, it is only the believing, promised seed. Romans 9:6

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The election of grace, the remnant, would also be cut off if they fell into unbelief. They would not get their inheritance in the promised Davidic kingdom.

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Unbelieving Israel would be grafted back into their olive tree if they repented and believed.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel will be restored when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in; that is when the Gentiles have fulfilled their purpose as determined by God.

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jesus will fulfill the New Testament and restore Israel.

In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the remnant of believing kingdom Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ.
 
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YourTruthGod

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So what kind of tree are the Gentiles?
 

MennoSota

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...lemon trees... [emoji522]
 

YourTruthGod

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...lemon trees... [emoji522]

Doug doesn't want to see that the Gentiles are the wild olive shoot.

So I have to hear what kind of shoots can be grafted in to an olive tree.
 

Doug

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So what kind of tree are the Gentiles?

Which Gentiles ?

Unbelieving Gentiles

Believing gospel of the kingdom Gentiles

Believing body of Christ Gentiles
 

YourTruthGod

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Which Gentiles ?

Unbelieving Gentiles

Believing gospel of the kingdom Gentiles

Believing body of Christ Gentiles

What do you mean which Gentiles?

There is only one kind of Gentile grafted in.
 

Doug

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What do you mean which Gentiles?

There is only one kind of Gentile grafted in.

Hi again

Ok but I see three kinds of Gentiles being spoken of in Romans.

First we can eliminate the unbelieving Gentile since they would not be grafted into the olive tree.

So we are left with believing Gentiles and the question is which gospel was believed:

#1 they believed the gospel of the kingdom....Peter's gospel....this is the one I see

#2 they believed the gospel of Christ.......Paul's gospel

You asked what kind of tree the Gentiles were..... so the gospel of the kingdom Gentiles would be the wild olive tree....the gospel of Christ Gentiles are to my knowledge never referred to as any kind of a tree.

Oh and by the way....RIGHT ON .....haha
 
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YourTruthGod

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Hi again

Ok but I see three kinds of Gentiles being spoken of in Romans.

First we can eliminate the unbelieving Gentile since they would not be grafted into the olive tree.

So we are left with believing Gentiles and the question is which gospel was believed:

#1 they believed the gospel of the kingdom....Peter's gospel....this is the one I see

#2 they believed the gospel of Christ.......Paul's gospel

You asked what kind of tree the Gentiles were..... so the gospel of the kingdom Gentiles would be the wild olive tree....the gospel of Christ Gentiles are to my knowledge never referred to as any kind of a tree.

Oh and by the way....RIGHT ON .....haha

No 'right on' for you yet. haaa You almost got when you tried to make some changes to the OP.

You said: "In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the remnant of believing Jews and Gentiles."


The wild olive tree is not the remnant of believing Jews and Gentiles. The wild olive tree are the Gentiles, and the grafted into the cultivated olive tree are the believing Gentiles. The cultivated olive tree had unbelieving Jews cut off, and they can be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree if they do not persist in unbelief.


You said: "The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ."


Think of the olive tree as the body of Christ. There are no two different gospels that save.
 

RichWh1

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Hi again

Ok but I see three kinds of Gentiles being spoken of in Romans.

First we can eliminate the unbelieving Gentile since they would not be grafted into the olive tree.

So we are left with believing Gentiles and the question is which gospel was believed:

#1 they believed the gospel of the kingdom....Peter's gospel....this is the one I see

#2 they believed the gospel of Christ.......Paul's gospel

You asked what kind of tree the Gentiles were..... so the gospel of the kingdom Gentiles would be the wild olive tree....the gospel of Christ Gentiles are to my knowledge never referred to as any kind of a tree.

Oh and by the way....RIGHT ON .....haha

Right! The Gentiles were grafted in due to Israel's [emoji1134] unbelief.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Doug

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No 'right on' for you yet. haaa You almost got when you tried to make some changes to the OP.

You said: "In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the remnant of believing Jews and Gentiles."


The wild olive tree is not the remnant of believing Jews and Gentiles. The wild olive tree are the Gentiles, and the grafted into the cultivated olive tree are the believing Gentiles. The cultivated olive tree had unbelieving Jews cut off, and they can be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree if they do not persist in unbelief.


You said: "The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ."


Think of the olive tree as the body of Christ. There are no two different gospels that save.

Hey

I am devastated not to get a RIGHT ON

I edited a few things for clarity and exactness......I originally said the wild olive tree was the remnant of Israel, which while true, didn't convey properly that the remnant also included believing kingdom Gentiles.

If the wild olive tree is Gentiles in the body of Christ we are in trouble because we can be cut off.......Paul does not teach that we ( the body of Christ) can lose salvation....only Israel can be cut off from entering the Davidic kingdom on earth.

I think we are at a stand still on this......BUT.... do you believe Christ died for your sins and rose again...and it's only by faith in Christ and his finished and complete sacrifice on the cross that gives you eternal life in heaven. If so I will give you a BIG RIGHT ON
 

YourTruthGod

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Hey

I am devastated not to get a RIGHT ON
Right on.hahaha
I edited a few things for clarity and exactness......I originally said the wild olive tree was the remnant of Israel, which while true, didn't convey properly that the remnant also included believing kingdom Gentiles.
The wild olive tree is not the remnant; but, the shoot is. Get it? The shoot to be grafted in is but not the tree itself, because the whole tree represents all the Gentiles, and not all Gentiles will be saved.

If the wild olive tree is Gentiles in the body of Christ we are in trouble because we can be cut off.......Paul does not teach that we ( the body of Christ) can lose salvation....only Israel can be cut off from entering the Davidic kingdom on earth.
No such separate kingdoms of God.

David's kingdom was a kingdom over Israel. God's throne is a throne over Israel and the whole universe. Jesus is sitting on the throne over Israel and over the whole world.

If a believing in-grafted Gentiles stops believing, then of course, he will be cut off.

I think we are at a stand still on this......BUT.... do you believe Christ died for your sins and rose again...and it's only by faith in Christ and his finished and complete sacrifice on the cross that gives you eternal life in heaven. If so I will give you a BIG RIGHT ON

Jesus died for my sins, and rose again and ascended to heaven. Jesus saves us all on his own, but he chooses to save those who obey him.

Grace is that we no longer have to clean ourselves and get circumcised and sacrifice animals. Grace is that we only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. We no longer have to go to an earthly temple to do the purification works ourselves; Jesus cleans us and we become the temple.

Do I get a Right On?
 

Doug

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Right on.hahaha

The wild olive tree is not the remnant; but, the shoot is. Get it? The shoot to be grafted in is but not the tree itself, because the whole tree represents all the Gentiles, and not all Gentiles will be saved.


No such separate kingdoms of God.

David's kingdom was a kingdom over Israel. God's throne is a throne over Israel and the whole universe. Jesus is sitting on the throne over Israel and over the whole world.

If a believing in-grafted Gentiles stops believing, then of course, he will be cut off.



Jesus died for my sins, and rose again and ascended to heaven. Jesus saves us all on his own, but he chooses to save those who obey him.

Grace is that we no longer have to clean ourselves and get circumcised and sacrifice animals. Grace is that we only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. We no longer have to go to an earthly temple to do the purification works ourselves; Jesus cleans us and we become the temple.

Do I get a Right On?

Hi

I am not ready to give you a right on

You said :
Jesus died for my sins, and rose again and ascended to heaven. Jesus saves us all on his own, but he chooses to save those who obey him.

Jesus died for our sins and rose again is RIGHT ON.... he is our substitute and paid the full penalty for sin. We only trust that by his shed blood and his cross he provided all we need for our salvation and eternal life. God saves us freely by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are not saved by what we do, it is not of works.

So what do you mean he saves those who obey him?

Grace is that we no longer have to clean ourselves and get circumcised and sacrifice animals. Grace is that we only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. We no longer have to go to an earthly temple to do the purification works ourselves; Jesus cleans us and we become the temple.

We are not forgiven for just sins we repent of, but all sin.
 

YourTruthGod

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Hi

I am not ready to give you a right on

You said :
Jesus died for my sins, and rose again and ascended to heaven. Jesus saves us all on his own, but he chooses to save those who obey him.

Jesus died for our sins and rose again is RIGHT ON.... he is our substitute and paid the full penalty for sin. We only trust that by his shed blood and his cross he provided all we need for our salvation and eternal life. God saves us freely by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are not saved by what we do, it is not of works.

So what do you mean he saves those who obey him?

Grace is that we no longer have to clean ourselves and get circumcised and sacrifice animals. Grace is that we only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing. We no longer have to go to an earthly temple to do the purification works ourselves; Jesus cleans us and we become the temple.

We are not forgiven for just sins we repent of, but all sin.

Hi Doug, You have some of what I said mixed in with your post, so it might be confusing for others to read.

We are not forgiven personally until we repent of our sins to God through Jesus.

You think you were forgiven before you asked for forgiveness?
 

psalms 91

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After being saved then we are commanded to obey
 

MennoSota

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Hi Doug, You have some of what I said mixed in with your post, so it might be confusing for others to read.

We are not forgiven personally until we repent of our sins to God through Jesus.

You think you were forgiven before you asked for forgiveness?

How was Paul saved? Did God forgive Paul before he asked?
Acts 9:1-6 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
Galatians 1:11-17 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles,
I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
 

YourTruthGod

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How was Paul saved?

By doing what Jesus said to do and repenting of his sins.
Did God forgive Paul before he asked?
No.

Acts 9:1-6 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
Galatians 1:11-17 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles,
I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.



Paul wasn’t saved yet on that road to Damascus when he finally believed.

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.


Paul was not saved as soon as he believed Jesus on that road to Damascus. This proves faith alone is not a true doctrine. Paul had to find out what he had to do; Jesus told him where to go, Paul obeyed and went. Paul did not eat or drink for three days, and he spent that time praying.


Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.


Can you imagine the prayers of Paul?! Paul no doubt was crying and asking God to forgive him for all his sins.


Acts 9:11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


The disciple Ananias put his hands on Paul and he received his sight. Then Paul got up and WAS WATER BAPTIZED after that. This all happened to the praying Paul who no doubt repented of his sins and asked for forgiveness.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'


When Paul had his vision restored to him, he was told to get up, be baptized and wash his sins away, calling on the Lord.

When people were baptized with water that was symbolic of having their sins washed away, after they repented.

In addition, people came out of the water after repenting and being baptized, they called upon the name of the Lord.

We are told to believe, and repent, and to call upon the name of the Lord.
 

Doug

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Hi Doug, You have some of what I said mixed in with your post, so it might be confusing for others to read.

We are not forgiven personally until we repent of our sins to God through Jesus.

You think you were forgiven before you asked for forgiveness?

Hi

Christ died for us while we were yet sinners See Romans 5:8

Just have to know you are a sinner who can not save yourself

Just have to trust Christ and his complete salvation
 

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You think you were forgiven before you asked for forgiveness?

Your forgiveness of sins was because of Jesus' death on the cross. So yes, objectively we are forgiven before we ever ask for forgiveness. Subjectively God gives us faith so we can trust in Him, repent of our sins and wait for Him to return living out our lives as little Christs so we can have eternal life.
 
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