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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Biases, imaginary faults, and sins.

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      Biases, imaginary faults, and sins.

      I watched a video that I think is interesting and worth discussing. It deals with faults that may be real or imagined and their manipulation within psychology and religion and it deals with biases that may be either real of imagined and their use within the work place and other settings where they may have an impact on personal behaviour and career.

      This is the video


      If you want to comment on it especially on the section dealing with religion this this topic is for you.

      I hope we can treat it as we have my first Experiment thread. This is a second experiment aimed more at how we react to serious challenges raised about our religious views of human nature.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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      Perpetual insecurity is the phrase that defines my existence. And I'm not even Muslim. I wish I had the "once saved always saved" mentality.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post
      Perpetual insecurity is the phrase that defines my existence. And I'm not even Muslim. I wish I had the "once saved always saved" mentality.

      Muslims will never be sure of salvation "I would not rest assured and feel safe from the deception of Allah, even if I had one foot in paradise", all we as Christians have to do is believe, blessed are those who have not seen the Son of Man and believe, woe to those who have seen and yet not believed..

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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      blessed are those who have not seen the Son of Man and believe, woe to those who have seen and yet not believed..


      Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories...nt-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post


      Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories...nt-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?
      His kingdom is fail proof, the believers make up the Church
      When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
      Matthew 16:13-19

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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      His kingdom is fail proof, the believers make up the Church
      When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
      Matthew 16:13-19
      I fail to see how that Bible quotation addresses my points.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post
      I fail to see how that Bible quotation addresses my points.
      That it's the believer that makes up the church, not the church that makes up the believer. You have a problem with following Christ because there are so many denominations?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      That it's the believer that makes up the church, not the church that makes up the believer.
      You're going to have to be clearer than that because I am not a very smart person.

      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
      You have a problem with following Christ because there are so many denominations?
      I have a problem with following things I don't understand, be it Christ or anything else. I don't understand why God would use faith alone (instead of other human attributes) as an assessment criteria for the process of salvation, especially when the world is filled with so many conflicting ideas about religion.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post


      Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories...nt-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?
      Denominations came from Protestant groups dividing one from another so it is no wonder that each has its own distinct set of dogmas because if they didn't then why would they separate one from another? Orthodox and Catholic Christians differ on some points so I will not speak for the Orthodox. Catholic teaching views atonement theories as theories.

      The data in holy scripture does not explicitly teach one theory or another but it does include analogies such as "ransom" and ideas such as "sacrifice" and appeasing "God's anger" as well as "expiating sins" all of which combine to give a picture of Jesus crucifixion as a sacrifice offered to God for the sake of human beings so that they can in some (mysterious) way participate in the saving work of Jesus Christ by becoming incorporated into him through baptism and faith. What you make of it all is up to you but it is not a good idea to get tied in knots over one of the theories that people have offered as an explanation of how "atonement" works. You need not choose one theory or any of them. The theories are explanations that people invent and they could all be wrong. So it is best to stick with the data that is present in holy scripture and use it to decide what is good and what is bad in each theory without committing to one theory as if it were divinely revealed truth.

      If you want certainty about your own state before God you might be wishing for something that does not really exist. Many people claim to accept "once saved always saved" but do they live as if they believe that teaching? Some of the people I've met who say "once saved always saved" are willing to tell me that I cannot be saved because I am a Catholic, others do not say that but the point that I am making is that "once saved always saved" is just an opinion like the theories of the atonement are. It's a point of view that is not explicitly taught in holy scripture so it has no special status as "divinely revealed truth". So do not get yourself worked into fear because you do not share that opinion. It has no special value.

      If you want to live a godly life, meaning one that is moral and good because it shows the good and loving qualities of God then do it and when you make a mistake or act badly ask for forgiveness and start living a good and moral life again. You will not earn your way to heaven by doing good and living a moral life but it will be good to do it. Stop being worried by your occasional (or frequent) faults, instead observe them and see if you can find a way to correct them. Not every fault will be correctable but some - perhaps many - will be and God is, according to the holy scriptures - willing to forgive whenever you repent and ask for forgiveness.

      Remember that if God really were in heaven looking for faults and planning to kill you or condemn you to eternal punishment then no one can stop him but if God is Love and willing to forgive then try to rely on that instead of relying of achieving perfection which you feel will never happen. Mercy overcomes condemnation, remember that. It is written in the letter of Saint James in the second chapter.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian Hodoboc View Post


      Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories...nt-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?
      Doing the will of God is something that people make really difficult, when actually it's pretty easy.

      Jesus said (simplified) the most important commandment was to love God and the second most important commandment was to love your neighbor. When people asked him to explain he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. So we can reasonably sum up God's will, at least in a generic sense, as "love God, love each other, the end". If first-century farmers and fishermen could grasp what it was about, anything that makes it difficult for a 21st-century person to grasp it is probably missing the point in a big way.

      I don't see the warning about not all who say "Lord, lord" as suggesting that the Christian life is some kind of crap-shoot where you get to the end of the game and only then find out that your church served communion before taking up the offering so what you did doesn't count for anything, or to pass through the door corresponding to the denomination you chose only to find you picked the wrong door and you're on a greased slide into the fire. I see it more as a warning to the people who say the long flowery prayers in church, who are quick to volunteer for the jobs they see as carrying prestige within the church but are then nowhere to be seen when something ugly needs doing. You probably know the type I mean - the ones who are always immaculately dressed, who are the first in line to gush about how great it is to meet the bishop or the archdeacon or whatever, who are happy to chair this committee or that commission, who maybe donate generously to things that they can put their name on (you don't have to talk about your generous donation when everyone can figure that the new Joe Blow wing of the church is obviously named after you), but who always have a convenient prior commitment when volunteers are needed to run the outreach to the homeless, or reach out to the new visitor who has a demanding physical job and maybe smells a bit because they sweat profusely at work (and maybe - horror - they have tattoos or something). Maybe it's just the person who talks a good game at church but hits his wife at home. I think the bit where Jesus said "when you did it not unto the least of these", especially paired with the parable of the Good Samaritan, makes it clear that he expects us to love people who might not be very lovely.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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