Biases, imaginary faults, and sins.

MoreCoffee · Mar 28, 2019

I watched a video that I think is interesting and worth discussing. It deals with faults that may be real or imagined and their manipulation within psychology and religion and it deals with biases that may be either real of imagined and their use within the work place and other settings where they may have an impact on personal behaviour and career.

This is the video

If you want to comment on it especially on the section dealing with religion this this topic is for you.

I hope we can treat it as we have my first Experiment thread. This is a second experiment aimed more at how we react to serious challenges raised about our religious views of human nature.

Lucian Hodoboc · Mar 30, 2019

Perpetual insecurity is the phrase that defines my existence.

And I'm not even Muslim. I wish I had the "once saved always saved" mentality.

Andrew · Mar 30, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
Perpetual insecurity is the phrase that defines my existence. And I'm not even Muslim. I wish I had the "once saved always saved" mentality.

Muslims will never be sure of salvation "I would not rest assured and feel safe from the deception of Allah, even if I had one foot in paradise", all we as Christians have to do is believe, blessed are those who have not seen the Son of Man and believe, woe to those who have seen and yet not believed..

Lucian Hodoboc · Mar 30, 2019

Andrew said:
blessed are those who have not seen the Son of Man and believe, woe to those who have seen and yet not believed..

Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?

Andrew · Mar 30, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?

His kingdom is fail proof, the believers make up the Church
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:13-19

Lucian Hodoboc · Mar 30, 2019

Andrew said:
His kingdom is fail proof, the believers make up the Church
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:13-19

I fail to see how that Bible quotation addresses my points.

Andrew · Mar 30, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
I fail to see how that Bible quotation addresses my points.

That it's the believer that makes up the church, not the church that makes up the believer. You have a problem with following Christ because there are so many denominations?

Lucian Hodoboc · Mar 30, 2019

Andrew said:
That it's the believer that makes up the church, not the church that makes up the believer.

You're going to have to be clearer than that because I am not a very smart person. :-_-:

Andrew said:
You have a problem with following Christ because there are so many denominations?

I have a problem with following things I don't understand, be it Christ or anything else. I don't understand why God would use faith alone (instead of other human attributes) as an assessment criteria for the process of salvation, especially when the world is filled with so many conflicting ideas about religion.

MoreCoffee · Mar 30, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?

Denominations came from Protestant groups dividing one from another so it is no wonder that each has its own distinct set of dogmas because if they didn't then why would they separate one from another? Orthodox and Catholic Christians differ on some points so I will not speak for the Orthodox. Catholic teaching views atonement theories as theories.

The data in holy scripture does not explicitly teach one theory or another but it does include analogies such as "ransom" and ideas such as "sacrifice" and appeasing "God's anger" as well as "expiating sins" all of which combine to give a picture of Jesus crucifixion as a sacrifice offered to God for the sake of human beings so that they can in some (mysterious) way participate in the saving work of Jesus Christ by becoming incorporated into him through baptism and faith. What you make of it all is up to you but it is not a good idea to get tied in knots over one of the theories that people have offered as an explanation of how "atonement" works. You need not choose one theory or any of them. The theories are explanations that people invent and they could all be wrong. So it is best to stick with the data that is present in holy scripture and use it to decide what is good and what is bad in each theory without committing to one theory as if it were divinely revealed truth.

If you want certainty about your own state before God you might be wishing for something that does not really exist. Many people claim to accept "once saved always saved" but do they live as if they believe that teaching? Some of the people I've met who say "once saved always saved" are willing to tell me that I cannot be saved because I am a Catholic, others do not say that but the point that I am making is that "once saved always saved" is just an opinion like the theories of the atonement are. It's a point of view that is not explicitly taught in holy scripture so it has no special status as "divinely revealed truth". So do not get yourself worked into fear because you do not share that opinion. It has no special value.

If you want to live a godly life, meaning one that is moral and good because it shows the good and loving qualities of God then do it and when you make a mistake or act badly ask for forgiveness and start living a good and moral life again. You will not earn your way to heaven by doing good and living a moral life but it will be good to do it. Stop being worried by your occasional (or frequent) faults, instead observe them and see if you can find a way to correct them. Not every fault will be correctable but some - perhaps many - will be and God is, according to the holy scriptures - willing to forgive whenever you repent and ask for forgiveness.

Remember that if God really were in heaven looking for faults and planning to kill you or condemn you to eternal punishment then no one can stop him but if God is Love and willing to forgive then try to rely on that instead of relying of achieving perfection which you feel will never happen. Mercy overcomes condemnation, remember that. It is written in the letter of Saint James in the second chapter.

tango · Apr 1, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
Believe what? We don't even know why He died. For our sins. Ok, but in what sense? Who was the ransom that Paul speaks about paid to? Ask 7 different denominations and receive 7 different answers. There are, like, at least seven different interpretations of the atonement (http://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/), and even if somehow we happen to believe the right one, Jesus said that not everyone who will call Him "Lord" will be saved, but rather only the people who do His Father's Will. How can I trust a religion that has so much division within itself, and is based on someone who stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand?

Doing the will of God is something that people make really difficult, when actually it's pretty easy.

Jesus said (simplified) the most important commandment was to love God and the second most important commandment was to love your neighbor. When people asked him to explain he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. So we can reasonably sum up God's will, at least in a generic sense, as "love God, love each other, the end". If first-century farmers and fishermen could grasp what it was about, anything that makes it difficult for a 21st-century person to grasp it is probably missing the point in a big way.

I don't see the warning about not all who say "Lord, lord" as suggesting that the Christian life is some kind of crap-shoot where you get to the end of the game and only then find out that your church served communion before taking up the offering so what you did doesn't count for anything, or to pass through the door corresponding to the denomination you chose only to find you picked the wrong door and you're on a greased slide into the fire. I see it more as a warning to the people who say the long flowery prayers in church, who are quick to volunteer for the jobs they see as carrying prestige within the church but are then nowhere to be seen when something ugly needs doing. You probably know the type I mean - the ones who are always immaculately dressed, who are the first in line to gush about how great it is to meet the bishop or the archdeacon or whatever, who are happy to chair this committee or that commission, who maybe donate generously to things that they can put their name on (you don't have to talk about your generous donation when everyone can figure that the new Joe Blow wing of the church is obviously named after you), but who always have a convenient prior commitment when volunteers are needed to run the outreach to the homeless, or reach out to the new visitor who has a demanding physical job and maybe smells a bit because they sweat profusely at work (and maybe - horror - they have tattoos or something). Maybe it's just the person who talks a good game at church but hits his wife at home. I think the bit where Jesus said "when you did it not unto the least of these", especially paired with the parable of the Good Samaritan, makes it clear that he expects us to love people who might not be very lovely.

tango · Apr 1, 2019

MoreCoffee said:
Remember that if God really were in heaven looking for faults and planning to kill you or condemn you to eternal punishment then no one can stop him but if God is Love and willing to forgive then try to rely on that instead of relying of achieving perfection which you feel will never happen. Mercy overcomes condemnation, remember that. It is written in the letter of Saint James in the second chapter.

Further to this I think it's worth considering two pictures of God.

One is a loving God who doesn't like it when we fail but is willing to forgive because his goal is to have a restored relationship with us. This model of God would see that we couldn't solve the problem of sin on our own, so solve it for us. He would see a precarious rickety bridge across the ravine, and build us a solid bridge we could count on to get across.

One is a sadistic God who doesn't like it when we fail and uses our failure as an excuse to punish us. This model of God could easily be seen watching us attempting to traverse a tightrope over the fires of hell, wondering how far we'll get before we fall in. Maybe he'd even give the tightrope a tug once in a while to see if we were paying attention.

I don't see support for the second model in Scripture.

Arsenios · Apr 2, 2019

tango said:
Further to this I think it's worth considering two pictures of God.

One is a loving God who doesn't like it when we fail but is willing to forgive because his goal is to have a restored relationship with us. This model of God would see that we couldn't solve the problem of sin on our own, so solve it for us. He would see a precarious rickety bridge across the ravine, and build us a solid bridge we could count on to get across.

One is a sadistic God who doesn't like it when we fail and uses our failure as an excuse to punish us. This model of God could easily be seen watching us attempting to traverse a tightrope over the fires of hell, wondering how far we'll get before we fall in. Maybe he'd even give the tightrope a tug once in a while to see if we were paying attention.

I don't see support for the second model in Scripture.

Two indeed -

God is Love...

OR...

God is hate...

Should be a no-brainer...

Arsenios

RichWh1 · Apr 3, 2019

Did we forget that God is also Just? A just judge must punish sin or disobedience
A merciful God would give us a way of escape and He did in sending His Son Jesus as a substitute to pay the penalty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MennoSota · Apr 3, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
You're going to have to be clearer than that because I am not a very smart person. :-_-:

I have a problem with following things I don't understand, be it Christ or anything else. I don't understand why God would use faith alone (instead of other human attributes) as an assessment criteria for the process of salvation, especially when the world is filled with so many conflicting ideas about religion.

In summary: You want to be in control and be your own god.
That is natural because humans are naturally rebellious and will not repent.
Congratulations, you are human.

Lucian Hodoboc · Apr 3, 2019

MennoSota said:
In summary: You want to be in control and be your own god.
That is natural because humans are naturally rebellious and will not repent.
Congratulations, you are human.

I mean, you're partially right. But it's not always true. Sometimes I really want to serve a God, but I want the communication between me and Him to be clearer, to feel less confusing.

MennoSota · Apr 3, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
I mean, you're partially right. But it's not always true. Sometimes I really want to serve a God, but I want the communication between me and Him to be clearer, to feel less confusing.

Again, it's a control issue. We struggle with trust and faith. After all, we were raised by corrupted humans who sometimes hurt us, failed us, belittled us and overall dominated their abusive, imperfect control over us. We project our experience onto others when something triggers it. Since trusting God requires faith, no matter the storm that rages, we are faced with whether we will trust fully or let go of God and try survive on our own.
We must determine who it is that is in control. The person of faith will echo CH Spurgeon's words and declare: "I have learned to kiss the wave that tosses me onto the Rock of Ages." This means we let go of control and we let God control, no matter how fierce the storm.
Jesus said: "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Do we trust this, no matter the storm?

MoreCoffee · Apr 11, 2019

Arsenios said:
Two indeed -

God is Love...

OR...

God is hate...

Should be a no-brainer...

Arsenios

There are other possibilities such as

God is imaginary
God is real but misrepresented in the holy books of religions
God has a sense of humour and people are the best entertainment in the universe

psalms 91 · Apr 11, 2019

MoreCoffee · Apr 11, 2019

psalms 91 said:
wow

Amen

Arsenios · Apr 12, 2019

MoreCoffee said:
There are other possibilities such as

God is imaginary

God is real but misrepresented in the holy books of religions

God has a sense of humour and people are the best entertainment in the universe

The two understandings of God are seen in historic Christianity and her natural enemy, Islam...

One understands God as Love in His Son...

The other embraces God as a hater/punisher of disobedience to the prophet...

The history of the world since Christ is the mystery of evil in the world...

Without evil, fallen man does not do well in this fallen world...

We naturally do well only in opposition to evil...

So that even the evil of hatred serves the Lord...

Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times,
and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Arsenios

Biases, imaginary faults, and sins.

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Matt 18:15

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Matt 18:15

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... and you shall live ...

... and you shall live ...

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