Disciples and Believers

MennoSota

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John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Arsenios

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John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him,
who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh
nor of the will of man,
but of God.

You see, when you are born of God, as this little pericope so plainly tells us, we are given the "right to become" Children of God...
That "right" is actually exousia, which means "Authority", describing the possession within ones self of Power,
and this Power within one's self is the New Creation we become in Baptism...
It is the Power of God to overcome sin within our self...

But having this Power does not mean that we will use it -
It means that we CAN use it...
Salvation is voluntarily sought...
And is Graciously Given by God...

IF you do not seek God's Salvation...
God will Give what you seek...
And if you do seek Him...
You will find Him...

If you ask...
It shall be Given...
If you beckon...
It shall come unto you...

You have total power and responsibility to seek God...
God has total power and responsibility to Give what you ask...
You cannot give yourself what you ask of God...
God will not ask for you what you need from Him...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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You see, when you are born of God, as this little pericope so plainly tells us, we are given the "right to become" Children of God...
That "right" is actually exousia, which means "Authority", describing the possession within ones self of Power,
and this Power within one's self is the New Creation we become in Baptism...
It is the Power of God to overcome sin within our self...

But having this Power does not mean that we will use it -
It means that we CAN use it...
Salvation is voluntarily sought...
And is Graciously Given by God...

IF you do not seek God's Salvation...
God will Give what you seek...
And if you do seek Him...
You will find Him...

If you ask...
It shall be Given...
If you beckon...
It shall come unto you...

You have total power and responsibility to seek God...
God has total power and responsibility to Give what you ask...
You cannot give yourself what you ask of God...
God will not ask for you what you need from Him...


Arsenios
Arsenios, you keep negating grace. Your argument of "earning" your salvation so you have the self "right"eousness to make God accept you is simply put... abysmally wrong.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios, you keep negating grace. Your argument of "earning" your salvation so you have the self "right"eousness to make God accept you is simply put... abysmally wrong.

Are we commanded, as Christians?
To ask in order that we receive?
Is this Command of Christ recorded in the Bible?
Do you believe the Bible?
Do you believe Christ?

Are you arguing that we are commanded NOT to ask for Grace and Salvation?


Arsenios
 

YourTruthGod

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In my mind I always considered disciples to be believers. That is, until I was reminded on another forum that Judas was a disciple and yet he didn't believe. Are there others noted in scripture that were labeled disciples but did not believe?

Judas was deliberately chosen to betray Jesus.

We have to believe and obey Jesus to be his disciple, but Judas was chosen to betray Jesus.

He never repented of his sins.

Judas would steal the money from the collection for the poor.

He never repented of being a thief.

John 12:6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
 

Arsenios

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Judas was deliberately chosen to betray Jesus.

We have to believe and obey Jesus to be his disciple, but Judas was chosen to betray Jesus.

He never repented of his sins.

Judas would steal the money from the collection for the poor.

He never repented of being a thief.

John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor
but because he was a thief;
as keeper of the money bag,
he used to help himself to what was put into it.

aka "The Mystery of Evil..."

In this fallen life, it almost seems that we NEED evil...

So far are we from God...

Were all evil to be removed from us now...

We would not know what to do...

The benefit of evil is the need to repent of it...

Even Christ was tempted...

The forbidden Tree of Knowledge was planted in the MIDDLE of Paradise...


Aresenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios, you keep negating grace.
Your argument of "earning" your salvation so you have the self "right"eousness to make God accept you is simply put... abysmally wrong.

Well, your slander is misplaced, but consider the following:

Joh 1:12
But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:
Who were born... of God.


How can we be born of God?
How can we be reborn of Water and of Spirit?
"Repent and be Baptized -
For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

the Bible is very clear on this one...


Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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Well, your slander is misplaced, but consider the following:

Joh 1:12
But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:
Who were born... of God.


How can we be born of God?
How can we be reborn of Water and of Spirit?
"Repent and be Baptized -
For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

the Bible is very clear on this one...


Arsenios
Arsenios, you twist scripture to fit your dogma.
John 1:9-13
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios, you twist scripture to fit your dogma.
John 1:9-13
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Then you tell me: Who is given the authority (exousia) to become a child of God?

Is it those who received Him?
Is it those who believed in His Name?
Is it those born of God?

I receive your accusation as your confession, my Brother...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Then you tell me: Who is given the authority (exousia) to become a child of God?

Is it those who received Him?
Is it those who believed in His Name?
Is it those born of God?

I receive your accusation as your confession, my Brother...


Arsenios
The one whom God CHOOSES to adopt as His child.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:29-39
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Arsenios, how is it that you do not understand these truths?
 

Arsenios

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Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:29-39
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The one whom God CHOOSES to adopt as His child.
Arsenios, how is it that you do not understand these truths?

And God chooses those who are repenting of their sins...
And He foreknows who they are...
He does not fore-choose them...
And save the rest for burning in hell...

The saved have to choose Salvation...
God's Call is unto Repentance from one's sins...
Those who repent in response to the Call of God...
These are the ones whom God will Save...

Living a repentant life is a good thing!


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:29-39
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.



And God chooses those who are repenting of their sins...
And He foreknows who they are...
He does not fore-choose them...
And save the rest for burning in hell...

The saved have to choose Salvation...
God's Call is unto Repentance from one's sins...
Those who repent in response to the Call of God...
These are the ones whom God will Save...

Living a repentant life is a good thing!


Arsenios
No. You make your repentance your means of salvation. By your method Jesus never had to die. Your repentance is all you need because it's ALL about you!
 

Arsenios

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No. You make your repentance your means of salvation. By your method Jesus never had to die. Your repentance is all you need because it's ALL about you!

:yawning:
 

Andrew

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140e1ec60378776e6c87a27873a16fcf.gif
 

RichWh1

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Then you tell me: Who is given the authority (exousia) to become a child of God?

Is it those who received Him?
Is it those who believed in His Name?
Is it those born of God?

I receive your accusation as your confession, my Brother...


Arsenios

All of the above!



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Arsenios

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No. You make your repentance your means of salvation.

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

God's very words, Menno...

You have to hear God...

I am but agreeing with God...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Sadly, you yawn at your demise.


Well, ya gotta admit...

Your words are so finger-pointingly predictable that they are snoozy...

And you seem to think they are God's Truth!! ;)

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!"


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

God's very words, Menno...

You have to hear God...

I am but agreeing with God...


Arsenios
Well, ya gotta admit...

Your words are so finger-pointingly predictable that they are snoozy...

And you seem to think they are God's Truth!! ;)

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!"


Arsenios
Spoken to the chosen people of Israel in accordance with Isaiah's prophesy for the nation of Israel.
Arsenios, you seem bent on butchering God's word.
 
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