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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Disciples and Believers

    1. #1
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Disciples and Believers

      In my mind I always considered disciples to be believers. That is, until I was reminded on another forum that Judas was a disciple and yet he didn't believe. Are there others noted in scripture that were labeled disciples but did not believe?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    3. #2
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      I'm not sure if this qualifies...
      2 Timothy 4:3-4,14-16
      For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
      Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message. At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

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      I'm reading Rosaria Butterfield's book entitled "The Gospel Comes With A House Key." On pg 123 she talks about disciples caught in sin. She states that the disciple who is a believer will repent, for God gives the gift of repentance. The non-believer will not repent, because they cannot do so. Only believers can repent.
      Here's the image of that page. I have the section marked in parentheses.

    6. #4
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      A disciple is a student or one learning. Not all who are disciples are Christ followers.


      Sent from my Z557BL using Tapatalk
      "Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

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      Demas came to mind from 2 Timothy 4:10
      for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia.
      Although who really knows if he ended up repenting of this.

      I believer there are probably many who attend church that are not true disciples. They don't really go to church because they are disciples, but for other reasons

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    9. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I'm reading Rosaria Butterfield's book entitled "The Gospel Comes With A House Key." On pg 123 she talks about disciples caught in sin. She states that the disciple who is a believer will repent, for God gives the gift of repentance. The non-believer will not repent, because they cannot do so. Only believers can repent.
      Here's the image of that page. I have the section marked in parentheses.
      Gen 4:7
      If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
      And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
      And unto thee shall be his desire,
      and thou shalt rule over him [thy brother].

      The first born here is given rule over the younger...
      And the younger shall desire the approval of the elder brother...
      And the elder was wroth with jealousy...
      He did not desire to do well...
      That his sacrifice be acceptable to God...

      But this is the beginning of the races,
      and of those who are killers of shepherds,
      and those who are the shepherds killed...

      And the curse upon those who kill...
      And the restraint upon those killed...

      The killers still desire to rule...
      To exploit those to whom...
      The earth yields not her fruit...

      Nowhere here does God give repentance to Abel...
      Nowhere does He deny repentance to Cain...
      Indeed God encourages Cain to repentance...
      And Cain coveted his wrath and killed Abel...

      The division is the same to this day...
      Those who bring fruit from the earth...
      And those who kill them to rule them...

      The producers...
      The exploiters...

      The peaceful...
      The violent...


      Arsenios

    10. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Gen 4:7
      If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
      And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
      And unto thee shall be his desire,
      and thou shalt rule over him [thy brother].

      The first born here is given rule over the younger...
      And the younger shall desire the approval of the elder brother...
      And the elder was wroth with jealousy...
      He did not desire to do well...
      That his sacrifice be acceptable to God...

      But this is the beginning of the races,
      and of those who are killers of shepherds,
      and those who are the shepherds killed...

      And the curse upon those who kill...
      And the restraint upon those killed...

      The killers still desire to rule...
      To exploit those to whom...
      The earth yields not her fruit...

      Nowhere here does God give repentance to Abel...
      Nowhere does He deny repentance to Cain...
      Indeed God encourages Cain to repentance...
      And Cain coveted his wrath and killed Abel...

      The division is the same to this day...
      Those who bring fruit from the earth...
      And those who kill them to rule them...

      The producers...
      The exploiters...

      The peaceful...
      The violent...


      Arsenios
      What's your point?

    11. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      What's your point?
      That the statement "Repentance is a gift from God" ...
      in the book excerpt you provided ...
      is not supported by the text cited: Gen 4:7


      Arsenios

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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      That the statement "Repentance is a gift from God" ...
      in the book excerpt you provided ...
      is not supported by the text cited: Gen 4:7


      Arsenios
      That verse has nothing to do with repentance. It has to do with the fact that sin lurks at our door as Christians. We need to be alert. We are given the gift of repentance, while a non-believer will not repent.
      Here's God's word to Cain:
      Genesis 4:6-7
      The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
      Here is what Cain did when God called out Cain for his sin:
      Genesis 4:10-16
      And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
      Notice that Cain never repented. He blamed God for being too harsh in His punishment and then Cain went away from the presence of God. This is the mark of the unrepentant rebel who never believed.

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    14. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      That verse has nothing to do with repentance. It has to do with the fact that sin lurks at our door as Christians. We need to be alert. We are given the gift of repentance, while a non-believer will not repent.
      Here's God's word to Cain:
      Genesis 4:6-7
      The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
      Here is what Cain did when God called out Cain for his sin:
      Genesis 4:10-16
      And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
      Notice that Cain never repented. He blamed God for being too harsh in His punishment and then Cain went away from the presence of God. This is the mark of the unrepentant rebel who never believed.
      The Lord said to Cain,
      “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
      If you do well, will you not be accepted?
      And if you do not do well,
      sin is crouching at the door.
      Its desire is for you,
      but you must rule over it.”


      IF YOU DO WELL...

      Cain did not DO well...
      He did NOT rule over sin crouched at the door...
      He did NOT repent of his anger...
      He did NOT overcome sin's desire for him...

      NOTHING HERE about him BELIEVING the Lord...
      EVERYTHING HERE about him DISOBEYING the Lord...

      Cain failed to repent of his anger...
      In disobedience to the Lord...
      Which caused him to fall from Grace...

      Totally clear...

      Cain did NOT DO WELL...

      And he knew God...


      Arsenios

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