Experiment.

MoreCoffee said:

Why?

Paul wrote pastoral letters. Are you sure that they teach exact scientific, moral, and theological truths?

Some are. Many are not.

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When we reach the point where someone questions whether Holy Scripture teaches “moral, and theological truths”, the conversation has run its course.

To answer your questions:
Am I sure that Holy Scripture teaches exact scientific truths? NO.
Am I sure that Holy Scripture teaches exact moral truths? YES.
Am I sure that Holy Scripture teaches exact theological truths? YES.

I leave you in God’s hands.

atpollard said:

[Romans 9:14-24 NLT]
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
15 For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh,
"I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you
and to spread my fame throughout the earth."
18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some,
and he chooses to harden the hearts of others
so they refuse to listen.
19 Well then, you might say,
"Why does God blame people for not responding?
Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"
20 No, don't say that.
Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God?
Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it,
"Why have you made me like this?"
21 When a potter makes jars out of clay,
doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay
to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power,
he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls,
who are destined for destruction.
23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter
on those to whom he shows mercy,
who were prepared in advance for glory.
24 And we are among those whom he selected,
both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

God is more than your unconditional love of evil.

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Good Grief - Did someone actually say that God loves evil unconditionally?

Romans 9:30-33
What then shall we say?
That the nations that did not pursue righteousness
attained righteousness,
the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel pursuing the law of righteousness
did not attain the law of righteousness.
On account of what?
Because not out of faith,
but out of the works of the Law.
For they stumbled
on the stone of stumbling,
according as it had been written:
Behold I am laying in Zion
a stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense.
And everyone believing in Him
Shall not be put to shame.

This passage shows very clearly that it is Christ who is the scandalous stumbling stone,
and it further shows that righteousness based on obedience to the works of the Law of Moses...
is not righteousness based on faith in God,
because God does not justify the self-justifiers...

Had they done the works of the Law out of faith...
As indeed Peter and the Apostles all did, (save Paul)...
Then they would have been corrected into the New Covenant...
As all of the Apostles were corrected through Paul...

But the wicked Jews did the works of the Law in order to rule Jerusalem...
And Jerusalem under that rule was destroyed...

The REAL works of the Christian are NOT observable works of enforceable Law...
But are the HIDDEN works of UNSEEN warfare within the heart of each person...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Good Grief - Did someone actually say that God loves evil unconditionally?

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You decide for yourself ...

I was thinking of substantial contradictions such as "God is Love" and the description of love's qualities in 1Corinthians 13 as opposed to God flooding the earth to kill everybody except Noah and this three sons and their wives himself and his wife. There's also the commandments about taking slaves from conquered nations and slaves among Israel's poor. Also the annihilation of the Amalekites. These do not fit well with God is Love. The concept of eternal punishment too is hard to fit into "God is Love". But I am sure that people find their own ways to cope with these matters.

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atpollard said:

You decide for yourself ...

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I was looking at the story of Noah, and from it came, at least to me, the teaching of the meaning of a remnant...

For God was about to chuck the whole enterprise, but Noah found favor with God...

The story of Lot was much the same story...

When the Giver of existence is turned from, the turner is choosing non-existence...

And as Hebrews tells it, when we have experienced Life Eternal, and then go back to sin, we are but fit for burning...

Hence the possible elimination of a people is a teaching of Holy Writ...

Also is the teaching that God IS Love...

So we are going to come along and say that the elimination of people choosing non-existence is NOT an act of God's Love???

Paul is right - Judging God by fallen worldly standards of fallen life and death is wrong on all counts...

By that standard, banishing Adam from Paradise was a cruel action, and not a loving one on God's part...

And MC does seem to find the elimination of the Amelites problematic for God's Love...

They were all going to be dead in a hundred years anyway...

And they simply would have had less time to do evils...

Look - If I am hell-bent on doing evil, killing me is a great and loving act of kindness...

I will have less to be judged for...

We all know the story of the road rage driver who caused a big problem for someone who then because of that delay was not killed in a bridge collapse...

This does not mean that God loves the evil of road rage...


Arsenios

MoreCoffee said:

Is saint Paul's definition okay?

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My brother, I would sincerely caution anyone who thinks God's Love can be defined...

Love is patient and kind;
love is not jealous or boastful;
it is not arrogant or rude.
Love does not insist on its own way;
it is not irritable or resentful;
it does not rejoice at wrong,
but rejoices in the right.
Love bears all things,
believes all things,
hopes all things,
endures all things.
Love never ends ..
1 Corinthians 13:4-8​

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This is much more of a paean to love than a definition...

It isn't a faulty definition of love is it;

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It is not even a faulty description...

but genocide, vengeance, slavery, and rape are not in the definition.

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Yet these all are a part of what God permits to occur when man insists on turning from God to the rulership of Death...

And He does so because God IS Love...

And He wills that ALL should be Saved, and come to the knowledge of Truth...

In this fallen creation in which we the sons of Adam now find ourselves...

ALL DIE...

What has Good to do with Evil?

Adam fell for the lie of Life Eternal by partaking of God's creation...

By partaking of the conjunction of both Good AND evil...

But we are to eat Christ's Body and drink His Blood...

That we have Life in us...

The New Covenant is the Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...

We have responsibilities in this Covenant...

It is the Covenant of Grace...


Arsenios

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MoreCoffee makes a good point in Post #3:

I'd like to believe what you've said but how do you deal with the passage that says no man has ever seen God and the many passages that tell of people seeing God and especially the passage where Moses is said to have seen God's hind parts. There are other passages where Jehovah appeared to a prophet or a priest yet the new testament affirms that no man has ever seen God.

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Are those apparently contradictory passages, contradictory in reality?

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MoreCoffee himself gave us a clue in Post #8, when he drew our attention to Exodus 24:10:

(Exodus 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel. And under his feet was something like a work of sapphire stone, or like the sky, when it is serene.
They saw the God of Israel, 70 + 3 of them. Was it a vision? The passage doesn't say it was. Did they "see God" the passage says that they did. It will be difficult to gloss it over and harder to make it say that they saw a vision of God. But I am confident that many will say it was a vision and give reasons for why it had to be - very scientific sounding reasons like an Atheist might.

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(Another translation renders the sapphire as being “like the very heavens for purity”.)

The setting is Mt. Sinai (the real one). The information that I have is that the rock on top of the mountain is blackened as a result of exposure to extreme heat. (The rock has melted and resolidified.) Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw God standing on what appeared to be paving made of incredibly pure and blemish-free sapphire, or on a serene sky.

One could be forgiven for assuming that the sapphire paving or the serene sky as witnessed, was not normally visible there. And that therefore it was part of what might be termed a “vision”, whether expressly stated to be so or not. And therefore the form of God they saw was also part of that “vision” – a representation generated by God that made sense to the human eye.

That being the case, all other occurrences of people “seeing God” (who is obviously invisible to the human eye, being a spirit being) likewise involved people seeing a human-eye-detectable representation of God that He Himself chose to manifest.

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When in the New Testament we are told that no man has seen God (John 1:18, John 6:46, 1 John 4:12), there is no conflict. No human has ever seen God in His natural form.

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Pedrito said:

When in the New Testament we are told that no man has seen God (John 1:18, John 6:46, 1 John 4:12), there is no conflict. No human has ever seen God in His natural form.

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Can a human, made of matter, see a spirit in its natural form? What is that form?
Certainly there have been visions. There have been experiences in the presence of God, but what "natural" (the one who created nature) form does God have?

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Pedrito (me) in Post #89:

When in the New Testament we are told that no man has seen God (John 1:18, John 6:46, 1 John 4:12), there is no conflict. No human has ever seen God in His natural form.

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MennoSota in Post #90:

Can a human, made of matter, see a spirit in its natural form? What is that form?
Certainly there have been visions. There have been experiences in the presence of God, but what "natural" (the one who created nature) form does God have?

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I think we can can safely say that God has a non-physical, and therefore spiritual, form.

Were I a betting person, I would place my money on what Jesus said in John 4:24:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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Pedrito said:

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Pedrito (me) in Post #89:


MennoSota in Post #90:


I think we can can safely say that God has a non-physical, and therefore spiritual, form.

Were I a betting person, I would place my money on what Jesus said in John 4:24:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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That doesn't answer my question however.
God, by necessity of His being, must manifest Himself in a form that we can observe. In the person of Jesus, God is fully man. In the person of the Holy Ghost we observe tongues of fire, a dove, and other forms. In the person of the Father we observe fire in a bush, something that goes between the cut up heafers in the covenant with Abraham, and other forms. But, we cannot conceive of an all powerful God being held in some specific form, outside of Jesus. This is why making an image of God was so damning to the people of Israel.

MennoSota said:

When a criminal is judged, does it matter how they die for their crimes of treason against the King?

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Okay, may be fair, but how's about a bunch of bears ripping kids to shreds for laughing at a temperamental bald guy?

ImaginaryDay2 said:

Okay, may be fair, but how's about a bunch of bears ripping kids to shreds for laughing at a temperamental bald guy?

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We have no idea how this event fit into God's Sovereign plan. We know that God is just and God's action in bringing the bears to maul these kids is just.
One thing I know about us humans is that we harbor a rebellious image that we have natural goodness in our being. We imagine that there is some good somewhere that must impress God and it is therefore a tragedy when God "picks" on us.
We have to accept that "all" our righteousness is as filthy rags. If we don't, we create a false image of ourselves that is not reflected in the mirror of God's holiness.

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Post #93[emphasis added]:

Okay, may be fair, but how's about a bunch of bears ripping kids to shreds for laughing at a temperamental bald guy?

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I would suggest, or even counsel, that treating the Holy Bible flippantly, lacks a degree of wisdom.

It is the Holy Word of God to us, after all. (Isn’t it?)

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As explained by commentators, Bethel was the capital of idolatry in Israel. The other centre of idolatry was situated in Dan. (1Kings 12:28-29) The “little children” (so called) were old enough to leave the city without the guidance or protection of any adult. They knew the man they were insulting to be the prophet Elisha, and they knew what had happened to his former master, Elijah. The mocking of this acknowledged prophet of God was both contemptuous and deliberate – they knew what they were doing. The epithet “bald” was used as a general term of contempt – even applied to people who were not actually bald. In that sense they were mocking the True God whom Elijah represented, in favour of their Golden Calf idol.

Laughing at a temperamental bald guy?

It goes much deeper than that.

The author of Post #93’s approach seems a “little” (like the young people) incongruous. His church (if my understanding is correct – he used to identify as Lutheran) consigns people who have never heard of the saving power of Jesus, to an eternity of screaming agony. Yet he baulks at Holy Revelation that records God’s laying just judgement on people who reviled one of His chosen servants, and who thereby were deliberately reviling the True God whose servant Elisha was.

Something seems amiss there somewhere.

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MennoSota said:

Can a human, made of matter, see a spirit in its natural form? What is that form?
Certainly there have been visions. There have been experiences in the presence of God, but what "natural" (the one who created nature) form does God have?

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The only "natural form" I know is Jesus Christ...

A very human form indeed...

What was it He said?

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father..." (?)


Arsenios

Pedrito said:

As explained by commentators, Bethel was the capital of idolatry in Israel. The other centre of idolatry was situated in Dan. (1Kings 12:28-29) The “little children” (so called) were old enough to leave the city without the guidance or protection of any adult. They knew the man they were insulting to be the prophet Elisha, and they knew what had happened to his former master, Elijah. The mocking of this acknowledged prophet of God was both contemptuous and deliberate – they knew what they were doing. The epithet “bald” was used as a general term of contempt – even applied to people who were not actually bald. In that sense they were mocking the True God whom Elijah represented, in favour of their Golden Calf idol.

Laughing at a temperamental bald guy?

It goes much deeper than that.

The author of Post #93’s approach seems a “little” (like the young people) incongruous. His church (if my understanding is correct – he used to identify as Lutheran) consigns people who have never heard of the saving power of Jesus, to an eternity of screaming agony. Yet he baulks at Holy Revelation that records God’s laying just judgement on people who reviled one of His chosen servants, and who thereby were deliberately reviling the True God whose servant Elisha was.

Something seems amiss there somewhere.

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Allow me to clarify. The context of the discussion when I quoted the post was whether God was okay with Genocide, and criminals being judged for crimes of treason. The (paraphrased) answer was along the lines that we ought not question God and his motives. There had also been some discussion about how we answer our atheist friends when these types of questions are brought forward. The subject of the Prophet Elisha in the instance I brought up is not foreign to atheists who might want to make the point that God is a meanie who delights in the death of children at the mouths of hungry bears. As you rightly noted, something is indeed "amiss" when one ignores the subtleties of the matter. I am not ignorant of these subtleties as it seems to have appeared to you. My apologies if I have been misunderstood. In the future, asking me to clarify would help as opposed to making that assumption.

As for "my church" that is a different matter which I won't address with you.

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With reference to Post #97 (ImaginaryDay2):

I thank ImaginaryDay2 for his clarification, and I stand corrected.

With respect to the church he now attends (if any – I am not associated with any particular church myself; however, I do attend Bible studies, both physical and online via Skype), it really matters not. The bulk of churches within what might be termed “Christendom” do consign people who have never heard of the saving power of Jesus, to an eternity of screaming agony. I was merely homing in on what I thought was a valid example of that.

Apologies to ImaginaryDay2 if I misrepresented him. Apologies also to the Lutheran church (in general) if I misrepresented the doctrine of their component denominations – in that vein, I am open to correction if eternal torment in “Hell” is not one of their beliefs.

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I will take this opportunity to point out that it is not only atheists and non-believers in general that are prone to mock God.

I submit that any “Christian” organisation that, or any “Christian” individual who, teaches and/or believes other than what God revealed in His Holy Revelation to us, is mocking the God that they state they believe in, serve, are saved by, or however they express it.

That leads to the much-avoided question: "Which of the church groups within Christendom is the one, the only one if any, that is actually not mocking Him?"

I would make a beeline for that, could it be identified.

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Pedrito said:

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With reference to Post #97 (ImaginaryDay2):

I thank ImaginaryDay2 for his clarification, and I stand corrected.

With respect to the church he now attends (if any – I am not associated with any particular church myself; however, I do attend Bible studies, both physical and online via Skype), it really matters not. The bulk of churches within what might be termed “Christendom” do consign people who have never heard of the saving power of Jesus, to an eternity of screaming agony. I was merely homing in on what I thought was a valid example of that.

Apologies to ImaginaryDay2 if I misrepresented him. Apologies also to the Lutheran church (in general) if I misrepresented the doctrine of their component denominations – in that vein, I am open to correction if eternal torment in “Hell” is not one of their beliefs.

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I will take this opportunity to point out that it is not only atheists and non-believers in general that are prone to mock God.

I submit that any “Christian” organisation that, or any “Christian” individual who, teaches and/or believes other than what God revealed in His Holy Revelation to us, is mocking the God that they state they believe in, serve, are saved by, or however they express it.

That leads to the much-avoided question: "Which of the church groups within Christendom is the one, the only one if any, that is actually not mocking Him?"

I would make a beeline for that, could it be identified.

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Do you consider your self to be an individual "church group" with a membership of one? It seems you are conveniently twisting to avoid your own judgment upon your self.
Moreso, God determines each person's eternal destiny, by justly judging our sin. His punishment, whatever it is, is also just. It is the foolish man who declares that God can't possibly condemn sinners for eternity. "Who are we to talk back to God?"

Arsenios said:

The only "natural form" I know is Jesus Christ...

A very human form indeed...

What was it He said?

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father..." (?)


Arsenios

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God by nature is spirit. Jesus was not Spirit He was flesh and blood.
Jesus took on the form of man. He added to the nature of God
This was the first time God took on flesh and shed that flesh on the cross.



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