• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 118

    Christian Theology - Thread: Experiment.

    1. #1
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Itsabrannewday
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      18,072
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,651
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (26,472 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      47,774
      Level
      56
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.57%
      Rep Power
      767

      Experiment.

      This thread is intended as an experiment to see if we can create a discussion in CH that is less composed to quotes from authority sources and more composed of what each contributor thinks themselves even if their thought has been formed by an authority such as a bible (66 book or 73 book or other) People are encouraged to use their own words, avoid lengthy quotes, eschew one liners, be polite, be patient, be scrupulous about reading the post that they are responding to and just make an effort not to treat the other people in the discussion badly.

      What topic shall we start with?

      I suggest something about which we likely have views but not necessarily the same views.

      So, let's start with this.

      How do you deal with bible contradictions and bible atrocities; do you try to reconcile them by carefully constructed explanations of what they mean and do not mean and how that removes the apparent contradiction or the apparent atrocity or do you accept that it is a contradiction and then find a way to preserve your view of the holiness and goodness of God despite the biblical contradictions and atrocities or do you do something else?

      I am choosing this topic because it is interesting, relevant, and likely to generate some heat but hopefully without smoke and without degeneration into mutual anathemas and insult throwing. I think it may be a good experiment because it will tell us as well as others how we will handle controversial matters in other threads and if we can keep civility alive in a heated discussion or if we can't.

      If no one want to participate in the experiment then that tells us something too. I am not sure exactly what it tells me, but I will work it out as things move along or don't.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    2. Likes Tigger liked this post
    3. #2
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      70
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      13,780
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,327
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,005,804 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,807
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.45%
      Rep Power
      653
      Very simply I dont believe that there are contradictions in the bible, only a lack of understanding and nor a lack of desire to sift the whole word of God to find out how to resolve the conflict that seems to exist.
      Isaiah 40:31

    4. #3
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Itsabrannewday
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      18,072
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,651
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (26,472 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      47,774
      Level
      56
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.57%
      Rep Power
      767
      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      Very simply I dont believe that there are contradictions in the bible, only a lack of understanding and nor a lack of desire to sift the whole word of God to find out how to resolve the conflict that seems to exist.
      I'd like to believe what you've said but how do you deal with the passage that says no man has ever seen God and the many passages that tell of people seeing God and especially the passage where Moses is said to have seen God's hind parts. There are other passages where Jehovah appeared to a prophet or a priest yet the new testament affirms that no man has ever seen God.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    5. #4
      Tigger's Avatar
      Tigger is online now Veteran Member
      58
      Married
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      1,373
      CH Cash
      57,815
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,350
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      59.78%
      Rep Power
      399
      I think this thread theme is a great idea as long as we follow it's parameters.

      As far as the subject of the OP, Lutherans embrace paradoxes which I highly appreciate and don't try and force scriptures into categories when they don't actually harmonize for the sake of our own limited understandings.

    6. Likes MoreCoffee liked this post
    7. #5
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Itsabrannewday
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      18,072
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,651
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (26,472 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      47,774
      Level
      56
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.57%
      Rep Power
      767
      Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
      I think this thread theme is a great idea as long as we follow it's parameters.

      As far as the subject of the OP, Lutherans embrace paradoxes which I highly appreciate and don't try and force scriptures into categories when they don't actually harmonize for the sake of our own limited understandings.
      Catholics point to mystery as well as to historical context and human limitations impacting what the holy scriptures could say at the time that they were written but that still leaves some contradictions that are hard to reconcile. And what do we do with the passages where God commands absolutely hideously bad things to be done?

      Mystery can take you so far and paradox may take you to the same place as mystery but what do we do with the really nasty things like the genocide of Amalek and the joy one is to experience as the babies one one's enemies are dashed against the rocks? I can't see a good way to make those passages true and still have a good God who is loving and moral.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    8. #6
      Tigger's Avatar
      Tigger is online now Veteran Member
      58
      Married
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      1,373
      CH Cash
      57,815
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,350
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      59.78%
      Rep Power
      399
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Catholics point to mystery as well as to historical context and human limitations impacting what the holy scriptures could say at the time that they were written but that still leaves some contradictions that are hard to reconcile. And what do we do with the passages where God commands absolutely hideously bad things to be done?

      Mystery can take you so far and paradox may take you to the same place as mystery but what do we do with the really nasty things like the genocide of Amalek and the joy one is to experience as the babies one one's enemies are dashed against the rocks? I can't see a good way to make those passages true and still have a good God who is loving and moral.
      Ultimately I trust God and His righteousness. Why He didn't do it Himself like Noah's flood or the parting of the Red sea and the Egyptians I don't know but let that be a warming concerning hell.

    9. #7
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      70
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      13,780
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,327
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,005,804 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,807
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.45%
      Rep Power
      653
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I'd like to believe what you've said but how do you deal with the passage that says no man has ever seen God and the many passages that tell of people seeing God and especially the passage where Moses is said to have seen God's hind parts. There are other passages where Jehovah appeared to a prophet or a priest yet the new testament affirms that no man has ever seen God.
      Simple Moses did not see His face and as for the others they saw a simlitude of God and not God, that one is very easy.
      Isaiah 40:31

    10. Likes Albion liked this post
    11. #8
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Itsabrannewday
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      18,072
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,651
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (26,472 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      47,774
      Level
      56
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.57%
      Rep Power
      767
      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      Simple Moses did not see His face and as for the others they saw a simlitude of God and not God, that one is very easy.
      Easy if you explain it away, yes, but maybe not so easy if the passages are read carefully and the words taken at face value. I know that many Christians are satisfied with explanations such as the one you've given. For the most part I am happy with it in some cases. Nevertheless a serious atheist will not back down just because Christians say "it is all a matter of perspective, Moses didn't see God's face so he didn't see God he just saw his posterior portions." and saying that the other passages are about a vision or a metaphor or something will land us in deeper trouble than doing a serious job of explaining each passage properly and credibly. The temptation is always with Christians to gloss over the difficulties. But a serious atheist will not be convinced by glossing over the data he sees in his printed bible. Let's take an example of one passage of this kind, there are many more than one, but for brevity just one will suffice for now.
      (Exodus 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel. And under his feet was something like a work of sapphire stone, or like the sky, when it is serene.
      They saw the God of Israel, 70 + 3 of them. Was it a vision? The passage doesn't say it was. Did they "see God" the passage says that they did. It will be difficult to gloss it over and harder to make it say that they saw a vision of God. But I am confident that many will say it was a vision and give reasons for why it had to be - very scientific sounding reasons like an Atheist might.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    12. #9
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Itsabrannewday
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      18,072
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,651
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (26,472 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      47,774
      Level
      56
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      17.57%
      Rep Power
      767
      Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
      Ultimately I trust God and His righteousness. Why He didn't do it Himself like Noah's flood or the parting of the Red sea and the Egyptians I don't know but let that be a warming concerning hell.
      I too trust God and love him - always remembering that he first loved me and did good to and for me - nevertheless genocide? infanticide? what of the mothers and fathers of the first born of Egypt, babies as well as older first born children all allegedly killed at God's hand by a plague (or the angel of death). How is that good and loving as well as moral? I can see a way of dealing with the ten plagues by treating them as lessons in a story that may not have happened quite the way it is told or may not have happened in any way. That is a possible solution but it leaves the issue of reliability hanging because if one story in the bible is a metaphor presented to teach a moral lesson then why not many or even all of the stories and then the story of the Lord Jesus Christ becomes a possible victim of the metaphor hermeneutic.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    13. #10
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      70
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      13,780
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,327
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,005,804 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,807
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.45%
      Rep Power
      653
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Easy if you explain it away, yes, but maybe not so easy if the passages are read carefully and the words taken at face value. I know that many Christians are satisfied with explanations such as the one you've given. For the most part I am happy with it in some cases. Nevertheless a serious atheist will not back down just because Christians say "it is all a matter of perspective, Moses didn't see God's face so he didn't see God he just saw his posterior portions." and saying that the other passages are about a vision or a metaphor or something will land us in deeper trouble than doing a serious job of explaining each passage properly and credibly. The temptation is always with Christians to gloss over the difficulties. But a serious atheist will not be convinced by glossing over the data he sees in his printed bible. Let's take an example of one passage of this kind, there are many more than one, but for brevity just one will suffice for now.
      (Exodus 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel. And under his feet was something like a work of sapphire stone, or like the sky, when it is serene.
      They saw the God of Israel, 70 + 3 of them. Was it a vision? The passage doesn't say it was. Did they "see God" the passage says that they did. It will be difficult to gloss it over and harder to make it say that they saw a vision of God. But I am confident that many will say it was a vision and give reasons for why it had to be - very scientific sounding reasons like an Atheist might.
      To be honest I dont care what a dedicated athiest has to say about the bible. If they are hard core there is nothing I can say or show them that will change their minds, only the spirit of God will be able to do that. So accept it by faith and look at it as it is and accept that the bible has no errors or dont.
      Isaiah 40:31

    14. Likes Tigger liked this post

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •