The fall

MoreCoffee

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So two questions come to mind:

(1) - Does this mean that only angelic human beings know the way?
Or that no human being knows the way?

(2) - If Christ alone knows the way, does this mean the Apostles do not?
eg - What is the purpose of discipling the nations?


Arsenios

You know some angelic human beings living on Earth?

You think that the apostles know the way to heaven or do you think that they point to Jesus as the one who is The Way?
 

Albion

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Well, the Orthodox Church invites people to embrace the Patristic consensus of understanding for Biblical interpretation...

The Latin Church invites people to embrace the Scholastic tradition of its own Church's understanding...
True enough.

Luther was offended by Rome's corruption and cast out not merely corruption, but the Church itself as He understood it...

He offered instead his own understanding of Scripture as greater than the Church's understanding...

Three very different understandings...

Hmm. I dont think that's quite right. First, ones conscience is important. We ought not talk as though anyone who is as knowledgeable as Luther was should simply have shut up for the sake of not rocking the sinking ship that was the Papal church of his day.

Second, it is not right to talk as though Luther went off half-cocked. Almost all the reformed churches, even today, recognize that his basic points were correct and that the Roman church had moved away from them by the time that Luther came on the scene.

At the Leipzig debates, Luther referred to the Orthodox Eastern churches to substantiation his own contentions, saying that the Roman claim that the changes made in faith and practice over the years by Rome really were changes, not some development of doctrine clap-trap, and that they were out of step with Apostolic belief and practice...and that this is evident, said Luther, for the reason that the Orthodox churches which are at least as old as the RCC had NOT changed their beliefs along with Rome!

Lastly, remember that Luther's hope was that the Western church of his time would be open to reform. We should not talk as though he went off looking to pull down the church or to create a new one. None of that is true. It was only when that church would not hear of his questions that he was expelled. Remember also that this is more the consequence of the weakness of the 16th century Vatican than the strength of Luther and his associates.

The Latins look to the consensus of their own Church throughout their own Church's history...

The Protestants forsake consensus and look to the Bible and its personal interpretation...
that's false.
 

atpollard

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(2) - If Christ alone knows the way, does this mean the Apostles do not?
eg - What is the purpose of discipling the nations?

Arsenios
Sorry, but even if I had insight on angelic beings (which I do not), I would probably keep it to myself.

However on the second question, one of my mentors shared some advice from Moody Bible Institute (a non-Catholic/Orthodox establishment, so use with caution). ;)

A. We are not their mothers and we are not God, so it is not our ultimate responsibility to make anyone else sanctified. Leave that job to God since we will only mess it up.

B. We should not be striving to get someone across the finishe line. We probably can’t even see that far ahead in their life. All they really need at this moment is someone to help them reach the next step on the path. If we are even one step ahead of them, then God has made us qualified to help the person behind us take that next step forward. God will worry about getting them all the way to the finish line.

The apostles taught everyone they met how to take the next step from where that person was at that moment, towards God along the path blazed by Christ that they were just further ahead on. When someone like Saul sprinted ahead, Peter rejoiced at markers that Paul had left for the Church to follow. Jesus’ commands always ended in as I have done, go and do likewise. The apostles always passsed on what they learned with the same instructions ... to disciple another. As the pithy saying goes: Each One, Reach One, Teach One. (Pentecostal advice on evangelism).
 

atpollard

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Are Anglicans Protestants or not?

Too Protestant for Catholics, and not Protestant enough for Evangelicals. ;)
I guess that anyone who makes everyone uncomfortable must be doing SOMETHING right. :)
 

Arsenios

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You know some angelic human beings living on Earth?

John the Baptist was one, and yes, I personally know three...

They are not exactly low hanging plentiful fruit, you know... :)

You think that the apostles know the way to heaven

Of course they do...

or do you think that they point to Jesus as the one who is The Way?

Of course they do...

And they DISCIPLE all the nations...

You cannot have blind guides guiding the blind...

They were discipled by Christ to disciple all the nations...

They teach the nations to CAREFULLY OBSERVE (eg to DO) ALL that Christ had commanded them...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
The Protestants forsake consensus and look to the Bible and its personal interpretation...
that's false.

Which Protestant Church will actually enforce Church Dogma...

Heck, the Roman Catholic Pope believes heresy by Roman Catholic standards, and they will not correct him...

Our Ecumenical Patriarch is going off the rails too, for that matter...

But at least it is headed for a resolution...

EOC Dogma is mandatory for the faithful, or the one advocating it will be taken out of Communion...

It is not optional...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I've been posting in CH for several years. I do not think you have read all 17,000 + posts that I've written. The truth is that I have written similar things numerous times in numerous posts. Not everyone reads them nor remembers them but I remember them.

I hadn't noticed that 17,000+ number before -
I mean, you sound like an almost normal person, I say!
Another of my famous theories...
Wrecked on the Rocks of Reality!

So I really liked that post even if it is but a spark in a whirlwind of similar posts, ok??

Sheesh!

Gimme the remote, the cigar, the bourbon, the pool table, the man-cave...

:):D:)

A.
 

MoreCoffee

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John the Baptist was one, and yes, I personally know three...
John the Baptist was beheaded so he is not living on Earth is he, he is buried on Earth, will be raised on Earth but right now he isn't living on Earth.

They are not exactly low hanging plentiful fruit, you know... :)



Of course they do...



Of course they do...

And they DISCIPLE all the nations...

You cannot have blind guides guiding the blind...

They were discipled by Christ to disciple all the nations...

They teach the nations to CAREFULLY OBSERVE (eg to DO) ALL that Christ had commanded them...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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Which Protestant Church will actually enforce Church Dogma...
Quite a few actually do that, as a matter of fact. Members of other church bodies call them legalistic and fundamentalistic for doing what you seem to think they do not do. :)

No, they do not put dissenters on the rack or burn them at the stake, which might be the ultimate in enforcement, but they dismiss them. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod even went so far as to clean house on its main seminary a few years back rather than suffer the heretics who had gained the upper hand on the faculty. The latter people had to form their own denomination in response and create a make-believe seminary. And many will quickly dismiss pedophile clergy rather than do the RCC thing and talk about it while hiding their criminals from the parishioners and the police.

Heck, the Roman Catholic Pope believes heresy by Roman Catholic standards, and they will not correct him...
true.

Our Ecumenical Patriarch is going off the rails too, for that matter...
I get your point there.

Note: I should clarify that my earlier comment ('that's false') referred to MCs latest entry in the Cutest Putdown contest--'personal interpretation.' That's a false charge against the reformed churches for sure.







.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Heck, the Roman Catholic Pope believes heresy by Roman Catholic standards, and they will not correct him...

Arsenios

I am not so sure what Francis may or may not believe. I suspect that you do not have a better channel to his thought than I. The media frequently runs away with headlines that are not backed by facts. So I am hesitant to condemn Francis as you seem willing to do.
 

MoreCoffee

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Note: I should clarify that my earlier comment ('that's false') referred to MCs latest entry in the Cutest Putdown contest--'personal interpretation.' That's a false charge against the reformed churches for sure.

Anglicans are not among the "Reformed churches" neither is Lutheranism. But the point is that Martin Luther pursued his own private interpretations and refused to retract any of them when he was challenged. His reply was, according to a disputed Lutheran Tradition, "Here I stand (meaning on his interpretations of holy scripture) I can do no other". A more accurate tradition about his words at the diet of Worms is this "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

Martin Luther apparently felt bound in conscience to follow what he believed to be the meaning and hence the teaching of the holy scriptures. In consequence he eventually became the founding father of a group of churches that to this day bear his surname as a part of their names.

But if Martin Luther's alleged statement at the diet of Worms is correct and he refused to recant on the authority of popes and councils because they contradicted one another then how could his conscience be bound by the holy scriptures because they too contain contradictions that are numerous, too numerous to list here, why would his conscience rely on holy scripture and be bound by it when in fact holy scripture both says "no man as seen God at any time" and also relates the seeing of God by Abram, Moses, various prophets, Jacob, Adam, Eve? And when the holy scriptures contain the command "you shall not kill" and then relates numerous stories where God allegedly orders human being to kill? And killing is not the limit. Genocide is allegedly commanded by God and God himself destroys the whole of humanity with the sole exception of eight people who were either in Noah's family or were married to members of his family.

Now I know that apologists have explanations for these things some of which are credible and some which are not. So it seems that Martin Luther's conscience may have been bound by a subset of holy scriptural data, a subset that contained doctrines that he liked such as salvation by faith alone and the right of individuals to read and interpret holy scripture for themselves as well as the right of individuals or at least churches to decide what is and is not acceptable as holy scripture. And Martin Luther's followers and successors were not content with their own conscience driven right to believe according to their interpretation of the holy scriptures they were also keen to deny that right to minorities within their lands such as the Anabaptists who they persecuted as mercilessly as any Catholic and more so in some places.

What makes me reject Martin Luther's approach is not only the obvious subjectivity of it but also the obvious extension of it to other people such as John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingly as well as Henry VIII and Edward VI and Elizabeth I of England. These people did not agree on the way holy scripture was to be interpreted. They were at various times mortal enemies at least in part because of their differing interpretations. And after these came the Puritans in England who eventually executed their king (Charles I) and established a religious "commonwealth" where conformity to Puritan doctrines was obligatory upon pain of serious punishment and even death. Groups such as Baptists arose during these times and were persecuted by the Puritans and by the Anglicans when the Anglicans were in the ascendency. Each having their own private interpretation or if not their own then one from a leader who had his (usually a man) own private interpretation that became the foundation of a new denomination.

The process of leaders forming a "conscience driven private interpretation" which soon became the foundation of a denomination continues to this day. Though nowadays the matters over which division into new denominations arises has moved on into "end times" speculations, adventism, which days to keep or not keep. Many denominations grew out of well intentioned enthusiasm during the "great awakening", Methodism was born out of those times. Later came a "second great awakening" in the USA which led to still more differences and eventually some new denominations or sub-groups within larger denominations.


So even though John Calvin did not have any such pithy remark as is attributed, by some, to Martin Luther at the diet of Worms he did have a book and that book's doctrines became foundational for the birth of several of what are now referred to as "Reformed churches" and Presbyterian churches.

Thus personal interpretation was truly a major factor in the creation of Protestantism and the various denominations of Protestantism as well as Anglicanism and the later development of Pruitanism, Baptist churches, Methodists, and later still Pentecostal churches.

"Private interpretation" is only a "put down" for those who want to attribute something else as the impetus for the creation of their denomination - perhaps the leading of the Holy Spirit, a vision, the careful and well reasoned deliberation of bodies of allegedly godly men on the meaning of the sacred scriptures, or perhaps something else.
 
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