The Soul Survives Death

RichWh1

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Like 16 is not a parable, since Jesus never employed a personal name in any parable he spoke.
That being said, I will say that Lazarus was a real person as was the rich man.

This is probably a true story about a real person; besides why would Jesus lie to prove a point? He wouldn’t!

So your premise is false and your argument moot.


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Andrew

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Like 16 is not a parable, since Jesus never employed a personal name in any parable he spoke.
That being said, I will say that Lazarus was a real person as was the rich man.

This is probably a true story about a real person; besides why would Jesus lie to prove a point? He wouldn’t!

So your premise is false and your argument moot.


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Exactly, Jesus uses a name and not just "a father and his sons" or "tares and wheats", this is also what the early Christians believed. There is a hades or sheol that we all go to lest Jesus comes back and we are still alive, there are two levels separated by a gulf in sheol, one for those awaiting the lake of fire and one for the righteous awaiting Heaven, Jesus describes this second one as paradise and he even promised the repented thief that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise! The RCC states that He indeed went to Hell/Hades for three days, Jesus was preaching the good news to those waiting in Paradise in Hades/Sheol.
A thought, when people claim to have a near death experience they describe meeting with loved ones in a heavenly place, I believe they are describing paradise in sheol, we won't go to Heaven until AFTER the resurrection
 

FredVB

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Pedrito said:
I doubt that that “the correct spiritual truth” that I “failed to comprehend”, was stated any more clearly than the other statements of Jesus that were described thus: “...It has been my observation that parables describe real things, often common things, that people can comprehend ... in order to reveal deeper spiritual truths.” The other statements were:
- The basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty – not faith, nor even “predestination”;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- There is water available to place on those tongues;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades and in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, are experiencing agony in flames before they are judged;
--- (But isn’t it normally taught that the wicked will experience fiery torture in a place called Gehenna?
--- And not until after the resurrection and final judgement?
--- What do the creeds state?)

The basis of salvation is trust in God's way of salvation submitting to that, which is through Jesus Christ when he was revealed in this world. His account of Lazarus and the unresponsive rich man who knew about him was not saying wealth or poverty is basis for salvation. Rather there is just penalty to come for sins, without repentance any do not have salvation, which is through Christ since he has been revealed. Lazarus was in fact not sinless, but the point of the account did not need that consideration, certainly Lazurus repented of his sins, as any need to do. I believe this was before any could go be with Christ when they die, so Lazarus went to where those who repented and lived for God went after death in this world, it was paradisial while still in the realm of those who died known in Greek as Hades.

I can see there may be physical aspects in the realms of the afterlife, I don't see scriptural basis to say how that cannot be tge case. In any case there are certainly going to be sensations all will have in the realms of the afterlife. There will still be misery experienced by those in that realm known in Greek as Hades who never could go to be with Christ, while they wait still for their judgment for fair sentence in the realm of that judgment in eternity. Souls are not terminated, they are created to last, and those not repenting suffer the consequences themselves without end then. Christ came to save us from that.


Andrew said:
A thought, when people claim to have a near death experience they describe meeting with loved ones in a heavenly place, I believe they are describing paradise in sheol, we won't go to Heaven until AFTER the resurrection

Still, Paul said that to depart would mean to be with Christ, and it would be better to depart than to remain in this world. That could only mean that those repentant redeemed people, as Paul, would see they are with Christ immediately when they die in this world. Christ said, though we die we shall still live. Christ is in Heaven, not that realm known in Greek as Hades.
 

Andrew

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The basis of salvation is trust in God's way of salvation submitting to that, which is through Jesus Christ when he was revealed in this world. His account of Lazarus and the unresponsive rich man who knew about him was not saying wealth or poverty is basis for salvation. Rather there is just penalty to come for sins, without repentance any do not have salvation, which is through Christ since he has been revealed. Lazarus was in fact not sinless, but the point of the account did not need that consideration, certainly Lazurus repented of his sins, as any need to do. I believe this was before any could go be with Christ when they die, so Lazarus went to where those who repented and lived for God went after death in this world, it was paradisial while still in the realm of those who died known in Greek as Hades.

I can see there may be physical aspects in the realms of the afterlife, I don't see scriptural basis to say how that cannot be tge case. In any case there are certainly going to be sensations all will have in the realms of the afterlife. There will still be misery experienced by those in that realm known in Greek as Hades who never could go to be with Christ, while they wait still for their judgment for fair sentence in the realm of that judgment in eternity. Souls are not terminated, they are created to last, and those not repenting suffer the consequences themselves without end then. Christ came to save us from that.




Still, Paul said that to depart would mean to be with Christ, and it would be better to depart than to remain in this world. That could only mean that those repentant redeemed people, as Paul, would see they are with Christ immediately when they die in this world. Christ said, though we die we shall still live. Christ is in Heaven, not that realm known in Greek as Hades.
Christ indeed is in Heaven, the righteous are not yet in Heaven with Christ but are in his presence in 'paradise' in sheol, opposite the lower part of hades where the unrighteous are in the presence of the lake of fire awaiting in misery
 

FredVB

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Christ indeed is in Heaven, the righteous are not yet in Heaven with Christ but are in his presence in 'paradise' in sheol, opposite the lower part of hades where the unrighteous are in the presence of the lake of fire awaiting in misery

If there were verses in the Bible showing the righteous are not yet in Heaven with Christ but in Sheol, even though souls of believers as Paul go immediately to be with Christ, and Christ is in Heaven, such that it really is better to depart from this life for that, I would see what would have me believe necessarily that when they die they must be in the presence of Christ in 'paradise' in Sheol.

You would need to show me the verses to convince me, for me to see what would have me believe that.
 

psalms 91

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Christ indeed is in Heaven, the righteous are not yet in Heaven with Christ but are in his presence in 'paradise' in sheol, opposite the lower part of hades where the unrighteous are in the presence of the lake of fire awaiting in misery
Paradise is now in heaven and indeed Christ took captivity captive and took it to heaven with Him
 

Andrew

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If there were verses in the Bible showing the righteous are not yet in Heaven with Christ but in Sheol, even though souls of believers as Paul go immediately to be with Christ, and Christ is in Heaven, such that it really is better to depart from this life for that, I would see what would have me believe necessarily that when they die they must be in the presence of Christ in 'paradise' in Sheol.

You would need to show me the verses to convince me, for me to see what would have me believe that.
So when we die we skip the resurrection and go straight to Heaven? What about those righteous that died prior to Jesus atonement? Did they skip the resurrection?
They are in paradise and when Jesus died for 3 days and went to hades did he not comfort the thief and say "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43 Jesus was in Sheol/realm of the dead giving the good news to the righteous for "the Lord shall not leave my soul in sheol"

We will not go to the unrighteous realm of Sheol where those will await the lake of fire, we will be in paradise awaiting resurrection and heaven, here is a verse that says until Jesus comes down then the dead (those in paradise) will rise first and then those who are alive shall be taken up..

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
 

Andrew

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Paradise is now in heaven and indeed Christ took captivity captive and took it to heaven with Him
So where do the dead in Christ go before the resurrection?
And how can they "rise" from Heaven?
Jesus will descend to Earth and raise the dead in Christ and gather them first.

Answer is they wait with joy in Abrahams bosom/paradise
 

psalms 91

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So where do the dead in Christ go before the resurrection?
And how can they "rise" from Heaven?
Jesus will descend to Earth and raise the dead in Christ and gather them first.

Answer is they wait with joy in Abrahams bosom/paradise
We sleep in the grave until that day
 

Lamb

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The soul does not sleep upon death because Revelation 6 tells of the dead who have awareness and Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with Him. Paul stated in Philippians 1:23 that in death he would be with Christ.

For those who have died, the resurrection will be the return to their bodies they had here on earth for resurrection. Resurrection isn't just spiritual but about the bodies as well.
 

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We sleep in the grave until that day
Scripture seems to suggest otherwise, "sleep" refers to bodily inactivity but when we sleep we are still consciously active.
The bible says that the dead (or those in "sleep") are unaware of the world and what's going on in it.
It should be comforting to know that although we die the death but before we are resurrected we are in "paradise" with all of the righteous and will be very well conscious! It will be waaaay better than where we are now and very peaceful and rejoicing to meet with our loved ones, but God has something even better than that coming and THAT'S Heaven. We will have bodies again but these bodies will be divinely better than the aging and dying bodies that we are used to.
Lamm is right, Heaven is not a just some spiritual place but a physical place
 
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