The Soul Survives Death

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
==============================================================================================

Post #39 (psalms 91):


No argument from me about that.

But the pertinent question is, what other Church Councils got things wrong?

And if a Council got one thing wrong, while supposedly under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can anything be trusted that came out of that Council? (The question pertains to both matters of doctrine and more worldly matters.)

How many Councils would remain intact, were that investigation to be undertaken?

I don’t have the time to do that exercise, but maybe someone else has.

The results could be interesting.


==============================================================================================

Everything should be checked to see if it lines up with scripture if not then throw it out and if it does then oyou are ok. We are told to try the spirits and test the word since we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved, we should never blindly accept what is said until we can compare it to scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to show us what is right and what is not. To many do not hear from the spirit so they are left to trust man rather than God.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

No wonder I couldn’t find it!

I had been looking for the Scripture passage that MennoSota had formerly declared to exist (Post #31 in Thoughts on the Annihilationism Thread on 03-02-2018):
Ezekiel shares a number of verses where the dead Kings of earlier Kingdoms wonder when Babylon, Tyre and Egypt will be punished. These souls are in the "pit" and very much conscious.

But in Post #11, MennoSota, after stating...:
Ezekiel gives us a glimpse of the afterlife where the souls reside in the pit. (Note that John calls on this same imagery in Revelation.)

...followed that with a quote from Ezekiel 32:18-32. However, that passage records God’s focussed judgement on Pharaoh and Egypt, and how they will end up in the grave like other powerful nations. It has nothing to do with dead people being conscious and wondering when Babylon, Tyre and Egypt will be punished.

But I really must assign full marks to MennoSota on this one. He tricked me (for a while).

==============================================================================================

But hang on! What about Verse 21? The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Well, who was speaking? It was the strong among the mighty of: Asshur; Elam; Meshech; Tubal; Edom; the princes of the north; and the Zidonians -- various countries with a variety of languages. And who were they speaking to? Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

So, if they were actually speaking (making sounds, as opposed to instructing by example), what language were they actually employing?

==============================================================================================

For that matter, in what language was the blood of Abel crying out from the ground in Genesis 4:10?

And why was his blood crying out? Why not his soul that supposedly survived his death? Why wasn’t his soul crying out from the place of departed spirits (or souls) that Christendom insists is a reality?

I’ll let the extra-Biblical philosophers (theologians) sort that out.


==============================================================================================
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
English Standard Version Ezekiel 32:18-32 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to the pit: ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. “Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are placed among the slain. “Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit. “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit. “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord God. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord God.”
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

Post #21 (re Luke 16:20-31): Why did Jesus employ a lie concerning the afterlife in this parable? Could God not have constructed a parable based on the truth?
Post #24: ...It has been my observation that parables describe real things, often common things, that people can comprehend ... in order to reveal deeper spiritual truths. However, the objects in parables are all real things that are easily comprehended…
So why does Jesus break his pattern and suddenly employ an imaginary afterlife, that Jesus knows is contrary to reality, in a parable?
The answer is simple, Jesus does not. Jesus alone is in a position to know the details of the afterlife and can present an accurate parable employing a small sample of his knowledge.

Post #27: ...Actually, the so called “contradictions” that you have presented so far reveal more of a lack of comprehension of the orthodox view than any sort of true “contradiction”…
... ... actually, we have studied it and concluded that Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.


==============================================================================================

Unfortunately, atpollard cannot have it both ways. According to his own rules, he must acknowledge that Jesus was teaching that:
- The basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty – not faith, nor even “predestination”;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- There is water available to place on those tongues;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades and in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, are experiencing agony in flames before they are judged;
--- (But isn’t it normally taught that the wicked will experience fiery torture in a place called Gehenna?
--- And not until after the resurrection and final judgement?
--- What do the creeds state?)

If atpollard denies any one of those statements of Jesus (or more than one), he invalidates his whole argument. His promoted stance that an independent, spirit life form (“soul”) survives human death, falls apart. (As does the proposition that the spirit life form that supposedly survives death, has a tongue, and eyes, and ears, and fingers, and a bosom, don’t forget.)

I wonder if those supposed literal teachings of Jesus are found within the official teachings of many churches. And I tend to be swayed by Holy Scripture when it tells us that two or three witnesses are required to establish something properly. Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1, 1 Timothy 5:19. So we need to see other passages that contain the same teachings, don’t we? I wonder where they could be.


==============================================================================================
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20
Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land.
Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

Post #21 (re Luke 16:20-31): Why did Jesus employ a lie concerning the afterlife in this parable? Could God not have constructed a parable based on the truth?
Post #24: ...It has been my observation that parables describe real things, often common things, that people can comprehend ... in order to reveal deeper spiritual truths. However, the objects in parables are all real things that are easily comprehended…
So why does Jesus break his pattern and suddenly employ an imaginary afterlife, that Jesus knows is contrary to reality, in a parable?
The answer is simple, Jesus does not. Jesus alone is in a position to know the details of the afterlife and can present an accurate parable employing a small sample of his knowledge.

Post #27: ...Actually, the so called “contradictions” that you have presented so far reveal more of a lack of comprehension of the orthodox view than any sort of true “contradiction”…
... ... actually, we have studied it and concluded that Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.


==============================================================================================

Unfortunately, atpollard cannot have it both ways. According to his own rules, he must acknowledge that Jesus was teaching that:
- The basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty – not faith, nor even “predestination”;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- There is water available to place on those tongues;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades and in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, are experiencing agony in flames before they are judged;
--- (But isn’t it normally taught that the wicked will experience fiery torture in a place called Gehenna?
--- And not until after the resurrection and final judgement?
--- What do the creeds state?)

If atpollard denies any one of those statements of Jesus (or more than one), he invalidates his whole argument. His promoted stance that an independent, spirit life form (“soul”) survives human death, falls apart. (As does the proposition that the spirit life form that supposedly survives death, has a tongue, and eyes, and ears, and fingers, and a bosom, don’t forget.)

I wonder if those supposed literal teachings of Jesus are found within the official teachings of many churches. And I tend to be swayed by Holy Scripture when it tells us that two or three witnesses are required to establish something properly. Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1, 1 Timothy 5:19. So we need to see other passages that contain the same teachings, don’t we? I wonder where they could be.


==============================================================================================

Parables convey a spiritual truth.
Arthur believes that you have failed to comprehend the correct spiritual truth conveyed by the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
Arthur will pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, because illuminating God’s word to reveal the truth is His job.

:pray:
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
First 11 minutes, I usually have to speed him up with youtube speed options.
Anyway, he goes through some of the Christian views on life after death and then he does a quick summery on what the early christians believed, which is basically that the soul goes to hades and that there are two parts, there we wait until judgment day... I dunno just an interesting opening, I haven't listened to the rest yet.
https://youtu.be/QGs7ZOVHdFw
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

In Post #45, MennoSota throws 1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20 into the ring. That is another passage that is generally evaluated superficially from the background conditioning of “normal” Christendom. From that superficial perspective, the passage can indeed give the appearance of supporting the idea of a disembodied, independent, spirit life form surviving human death.

But if we scratch the surface a tad, does that passage really offer support for the promoted idea? Or does it do just the opposite? Let’s have a look.

==============================================================================================

Samuel the prophet had died and had been buried. The Philistines were coming to attack Israel and get Saul. Saul is panicking, and he asks God for help. But God won’t answer him in any of the three standard ways. Saul regrets having put away people that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. He sees someone like that as being the only way he can get advice. He asks his servants to find out if there are any he might have missed. He is told that there is a woman that has a familiar spirit at Endor. Saul goes in disguise with two of his servants to seek her help. This is where things get interesting.

==============================================================================================

The events that follow give rise to some perplexing questions. The following sequence seems to provide answers to one or two of them.

Saul states his business and assures her it is not a trick to get her killed. He asks her to bring Samuel back from the dead for a while. She does whatever she does, and an apparition (visible only to her) appears. The apparition (which might or might not be Samuel at this stage) bows to Saul. (Saul had no idea which way to bow to the invisible presence.) The woman realises that her visitor is none other than Saul himself, and goes all wobbly.

Saul asks the woman what she saw. She says she saw a god-like being ascending from the earth**. The description she gives when questioned further, convinces Saul that the being he cannot see is Samuel.

==============================================================================================

We’ll look at the eye-opening features of the conversation which follows, next time.

==============================================================================================
==============================================================================================

**The Hebrew language has a feature described as the plural of majesty/importance/intensity, etc. A noun of plural form is used as a singular noun to give emphasis. An example is the “blood” in Genesis 4:10 and the use of “Elohim” (gods) for God and for important people. The context defines the meaning. If a singular verb is associated with a plural noun for instance, the intense form is indicated.

As far as I am aware, there is no parallel in Greek, so a plural noun requires a plural verb. Clear (meaningful) translation can thus me muddied.

My suspicion is that the plural-noun-plural-verb scenario in this case found its way back into the Hebrew from the Geek. At least in some texts. Why else did Saul ask about the “gods”, thus: “What was his form?” (singular); and why did the woman describe the “gods” as “an old man”?


==============================================================================================
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

In Post #45, MennoSota throws 1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20 into the ring. That is another passage that is generally evaluated superficially from the background conditioning of “normal” Christendom. From that superficial perspective, the passage can indeed give the appearance of supporting the idea of a disembodied, independent, spirit life form surviving human death.

But if we scratch the surface a tad, does that passage really offer support for the promoted idea? Or does it do just the opposite? Let’s have a look.

==============================================================================================

Samuel the prophet had died and had been buried. The Philistines were coming to attack Israel and get Saul. Saul is panicking, and he asks God for help. But God won’t answer him in any of the three standard ways. Saul regrets having put away people that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. He sees someone like that as being the only way he can get advice. He asks his servants to find out if there are any he might have missed. He is told that there is a woman that has a familiar spirit at Endor. Saul goes in disguise with two of his servants to seek her help. This is where things get interesting.

==============================================================================================

The events that follow give rise to some perplexing questions. The following sequence seems to provide answers to one or two of them.

Saul states his business and assures her it is not a trick to get her killed. He asks her to bring Samuel back from the dead for a while. She does whatever she does, and an apparition (visible only to her) appears. The apparition (which might or might not be Samuel at this stage) bows to Saul. (Saul had no idea which way to bow to the invisible presence.) The woman realises that her visitor is none other than Saul himself, and goes all wobbly.

Saul asks the woman what she saw. She says she saw a god-like being ascending from the earth**. The description she gives when questioned further, convinces Saul that the being he cannot see is Samuel.

==============================================================================================

We’ll look at the eye-opening features of the conversation which follows, next time.

==============================================================================================
==============================================================================================

**The Hebrew language has a feature described as the plural of majesty/importance/intensity, etc. A noun of plural form is used as a singular noun to give emphasis. An example is the “blood” in Genesis 4:10 and the use of “Elohim” (gods) for God and for important people. The context defines the meaning. If a singular verb is associated with a plural noun for instance, the intense form is indicated.

As far as I am aware, there is no parallel in Greek, so a plural noun requires a plural verb. Clear (meaningful) translation can thus me muddied.

My suspicion is that the plural-noun-plural-verb scenario in this case found its way back into the Hebrew from the Geek. At least in some texts. Why else did Saul ask about the “gods”, thus: “What was his form?” (singular); and why did the woman describe the “gods” as “an old man”?


==============================================================================================
Do you believe in Sheol? When Jesus was on the cross he told the thief that today he would be with him in paradise, therefore Jesus went to hades/sheol into Abrahams bosom, this is the place where the righteous souls currently reside until resurrection, the unrighteous souls are confined in the lower part of hades where they they wait in fear of the resurrection, judgment and the second death...
Abrahams Bosom (Paradise) is where Jesus went to fullfil the promise that they will be resurrected and taken out of sheol and dwell with him in eternal Heaven (which is a much nicer place than Paradise!)

When believers in Christ die they to will go to paradise in the realm of souls, this is most likey why near death experiences often see a place full of joy and reuniting with loved ones, it's outside of Heaven but no Heaven itself....
Likewise the near death experience of those who experience horror are in the lower parts of hades where there is much gnashing of teeth as they await the flames of eternal torment.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

In Post #45, MennoSota throws 1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20 into the ring. That is another passage that is generally evaluated superficially from the background conditioning of “normal” Christendom. From that superficial perspective, the passage can indeed give the appearance of supporting the idea of a disembodied, independent, spirit life form surviving human death.

We scratched the surface a little last time. Now let’s have a look at the conversation between Saul and the apparition he cannot see, and find out what we learn from that.

==============================================================================================

Samuel asks Saul why Saul has disturbed him and brought him up. Saul says it is because God won’t give him the time of day any more, and he needs advice. Samuel says that God has given the kingdom to David, that Saul and his sons will join Samuel in death, and that Israel will be handed to the Philistines. (Notice the “this day” used as emphasis.)

Now it is Saul’s turn to go all wobbly, and he falls to the earth. The woman gives him a feed, he has a rest, and then he and companions take off.

[[Note: Did Saul and his sons die in battle “tomorrow”, as translated? If not, then either the apparition gave a false prophecy, or we have another example of questionable translation.]]

==============================================================================================

We are not given any more information about the apparition. Did it disappear? Did it live until an older age and die again (like Lazarus)? Why did the apparition say it was disturbed, when it was supposed to be socialising with other righteous dead people in the “righteous side of Sheol” (Hades) as we are commonly told?

There is nothing in this passage to indicate anything other than what God inspired OT writers to pen – that the dead lie at rest in the grave until they are raised at the future resurrection.


==============================================================================================
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
==============================================================================================

In Post #45, MennoSota throws 1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20 into the ring. That is another passage that is generally evaluated superficially from the background conditioning of “normal” Christendom. From that superficial perspective, the passage can indeed give the appearance of supporting the idea of a disembodied, independent, spirit life form surviving human death.

We scratched the surface a little last time. Now let’s have a look at the conversation between Saul and the apparition he cannot see, and find out what we learn from that.

==============================================================================================

Samuel asks Saul why Saul has disturbed him and brought him up. Saul says it is because God won’t give him the time of day any more, and he needs advice. Samuel says that God has given the kingdom to David, that Saul and his sons will join Samuel in death, and that Israel will be handed to the Philistines. (Notice the “this day” used as emphasis.)

Now it is Saul’s turn to go all wobbly, and he falls to the earth. The woman gives him a feed, he has a rest, and then he and companions take off.

[[Note: Did Saul and his sons die in battle “tomorrow”, as translated? If not, then either the apparition gave a false prophecy, or we have another example of questionable translation.]]

==============================================================================================

We are not given any more information about the apparition. Did it disappear? Did it live until an older age and die again (like Lazarus)? Why did the apparition say it was disturbed, when it was supposed to be socialising with other righteous dead people in the “righteous side of Sheol” (Hades) as we are commonly told?

There is nothing in this passage to indicate anything other than what God inspired OT writers to pen – that the dead lie at rest in the grave until they are raised at the future resurrection.


==============================================================================================
...and that Samuel's spirit was alive and able to be summoned by ordination of God.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

Post #51:
...and that Samuel's spirit was alive and able to be summoned by ordination of God.

Once again we see the bypassing of detail that would show that significant sounding, superficial statement to be untrue.

1. The apparition did not appear directly to Saul. Why not? The real Samuel would have had no problem in doing so.
2. The invisible apparition was said to be wearing a mantle. Where did a departed spirit living in a place of departed spirits, obtain a mantle? Was there a depart
ment store for the departed?
3. The apparition was said to ask, "Why have you {caused me to quake/disquieted me/enraged me/disturbed me} (according to the BDB lexicon) by bringing me up?" Is that something the real Samuel would have asked? Why?
4. Were Saul and his sons killed the very next day? If not, then the apparition made a false prophecy – something that Samuel would never have done.
5. The apparition was not “summoned by ordination of God”. Quite the opposite. The apparition appeared as a result of the application of evil arts that God had directly forbidden. The broader chapter itself says so. Leviticus 20:27 makes that very clear. I would personally be very careful about what I accuse God of.

==============================================================================================

So once again we’ve seen a significant sounding, superficial statement being used as support for a post-Nicene belief of ungodly origin.


==============================================================================================
 

FredVB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
310
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I don't refer to souls as immortal souls, it isn't a biblical phrase. Immortality is from Yahweh. When anyone dies, death can cut off the soul. In the Bible, the soul can suffer in a righteous sentence. The soul in Christ does not have to face that, as there was repentance and Christ bore the suffering and all judgment for us. Immortality is just given in the resurrection, from God, when the redeemed rise bodily putting on incorruption.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

Post #16 (MoreCoffee): Do you think any of the bible is unreliable Pedrito?

The question is a good one, embracing as it does, a number of aspects. The aspects include:
- Major and minor textual differences between versions of individual writings;
- The differences between the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version and the Hebrew (Masoretic) version of the “Old Testament”;
- Identifiable additions to the original text;
- Probable, but unprovable, additions to the original text;
- Unidentifiable removals from the original text;
- Obvious mistranslations into (in our case) English;
- The deliberate imposition of retrofitted meanings onto some passages, to bolster post-Nicene beliefs.

==============================================================================================

Some years ago I stumbled across a website set up by an atheist. He did a great job of presenting evidence pertaining to many different perspectives, yet was not given to the belligerence displayed by some people of his persuasion, and by some “Christian” apologists. The text on the site was predominantly green from memory. Some of the information there presented, had strong relevance to considerations above. A few months later I was unable to find the site again, nor during subsequent tries. I mention this because if someone has come across that website, or does so in the future, I would love to be advised of one of the component URL’s. Thanks in advance.

==============================================================================================

In a following Post, the criteria above will be addressed in a little more detail, and the overriding providence of God revealed.


==============================================================================================
 

FredVB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
310
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
==============================================================================================

Post #16 (MoreCoffee): Do you think any of the bible is unreliable Pedrito?

The question is a good one, embracing as it does, a number of aspects. The aspects include:
- Major and minor textual differences between versions of individual writings;
- The differences between the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version and the Hebrew (Masoretic) version of the “Old Testament”;
- Identifiable additions to the original text;
- Probable, but unprovable, additions to the original text;
- Unidentifiable removals from the original text;
- Obvious mistranslations into (in our case) English;
- The deliberate imposition of retrofitted meanings onto some passages, to bolster post-Nicene beliefs.

==============================================================================================

Some years ago I stumbled across a website set up by an atheist. He did a great job of presenting evidence pertaining to many different perspectives, yet was not given to the belligerence displayed by some people of his persuasion, and by some “Christian” apologists. The text on the site was predominantly green from memory. Some of the information there presented, had strong relevance to considerations above. A few months later I was unable to find the site again, nor during subsequent tries. I mention this because if someone has come across that website, or does so in the future, I would love to be advised of one of the component URL’s. Thanks in advance.

==============================================================================================

In a following Post, the criteria above will be addressed in a little more detail, and the overriding providence of God revealed.


==============================================================================================

Major textual differences are something I would consider worth looking at. Minor differences are like spelling differences, not differences in meaning, so I wouldn't care about such.

The Septuagint, itself a translation, and the Masoretic, should both be thoroughly checked, by those with knowledge of the languages. I don't distrust the Masoretic, some prefer the Septuagint, I see, but I found problems with trusting numbers and genealogy in it, so what is preserved through the Masoretic should be considered.

There are seeming additions in the new testament of the Bible that I know about and recognize as such seeming additions. I don't know at all what was removed.

I check a few different versions when I need further understanding from passages, that can be different enough in those. I check Blue Letter Bible for what is questionable, but I don't have to do that often.

That is enough for checking, in my regular life, to still be of use to Yahweh God with his word.
 

FredVB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
310
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
First, let's define the word "SOUL" that I intend to demonstrate Scriptural support for surviving death.

PSYCHE [G5590] ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Furthermore, I will distinguish it by the narrower usage applied to the immortal human soul defined in Thayer's Greek Lexicon as follows:

b. the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life: 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17; ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς, James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20; σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).
c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from τό σῶμα, as the other part of human nature (so in Greek writings from Isocrates and Xenophon down; cf. examples in Passow, under the word, p. 2589{a} bottom; Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)): Matthew 10:28, cf. 4 Macc. 13:14 (it is called ἀθάνατος, Herodotus 2, 123; Plato Phaedr., p. 245 c., 246 a., others; ἄφθαρτος, Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 14; διαλυθῆναι τήν ψυχήν ἀπό τοῦ σώματος, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 14); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul, Acts 2:27, 31 Rec.; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4 (Wis. 3:1; (on the Homeric use of the word, see Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word, 3, and references at the end, also Proudfit in Bib. Sacr. for 1858, pp. 753-805)).

First, I am not arguing against seeing that souls do continue.

Immortality is never a word used for souls in passages of the Bible. It is a conceivable characteristic of living. But living is a physical quality. We and all living animals are not the only living ones, there are fungi living, there are plants living, there are bacteria living. Yet we read in scripture of the living God, this is the case with God incarnating. And there is this.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light.

God alone has immortality, but ...

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

How is this true about this mortal putting on immortality, if God alone has immortality? It is consistent just with understanding that God alone has immortality to give. It can't be had from anywhere else, and it is given only according to God's plan.

Souls are spoken of among living people and among living animals, in scriptures, indeed souls are anima, from which we have the word animal derived.

What do scholars say the soul is?
1. “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the Old Testament. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. The term psy•khe′ is the New Testament word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.
2. “The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”
—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7: “God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is neʹphesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·kheʹ. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)
Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from neʹphesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)
Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Where does the Bible say that animals are souls?
Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 25: “God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls* . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. . . . And God went on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds . . . ’ And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind.” (*In Hebrew the word here is neʹphesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature.”)
Lev. 24:17, 18: “In case a man strikes any soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail. And the fatal striker of the soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] of a domestic animal should make compensation for it, soul for soul.” (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)
Rev. 16:3: “It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul* died, yes, the things in the sea.” (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·kheʹ. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.”)
 

FredVB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
310
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Andrew said:
What's the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire? Are they the same? The Lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, and hell will be thrown into the lake as the new Earth and new Heaven are created, is this likewise implying that Hell will be united with the Lake of Fire just as Earth and Heaven will be united?

The lake of fire depicted in the Bible is Gehenna, it is a permanent destination for souls that were never truly repentant, where the devil and his direct servants would have already been cast. Hades mentioned in the Bible is often shown as hell in translations, it is not a permanent destination though. Those not in Christ would find themselves there when they die, it is still a miserable place, they wait and wait there, until the time of the appointed judgment, to be fairly sentenced to the right degree permanently in Gehenna. It is all that were in Hades that would be cast into that lake, Gehenna.

The new Earth is what creation is restored to be, as it was meant to be in the creation originally, before there was the rebellion that was ongoing sin, with ongoing curse that grows, with that. All creation is groaning for that. That new Earth will surely be united with the new heaven, there will be the great mountain with the city of heaven, which stretches from heaven to the Earth.
 
Last edited:

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The lake of fire depicted in the Bible is Gehenna, it is a permanent destination for souls that were never truly repentant, where the devil and his direct servants would have already been cast. Hades mentioned in the Bible is often shown as hell in translations, it is not a permanent destination though. Those not in Christ would find themselves there when they die, it is still a miserable place, they wait and wait there, until the time of the appointed judgment, to be fairly sentenced to the right degree permanently in Gehenna. It is all that were in Hades that would be cast into that lake, Gehenna.

The new Earth is what creation is restored to be, as it was meant to be in the creation originally, before there was the rebellion that was ongoing sin, with ongoing curse that grows, with that. All creation is groaning for that. That new Earth will surely be united with the new heaven, there will be the great mountain with the city of heaven, which stretches from heaven to the Earth.
Great answer I agree
 

FredVB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
310
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
A soul certainly continues on after death. Life is a physical phenomenon, and death is a physical state of a body as well. Immortality applies to life that can be bestowed on a body, with incorruptibility. It improperly applied as a term to a soul, people confuse that though and use that term with it, souls will continue on, as Yahweh God meant them to, redeemed if having come into Christ and relationship with God, or suffering just judgment for life of all their sin forever if not.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
==============================================================================================

I was taken by atpollard’s apparent concern for my welfare as expressed in Post #46:
Parables convey a spiritual truth.
Arthur believes that you have failed to comprehend the correct spiritual truth conveyed by the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
Arthur will pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, because illuminating God’s word to reveal the truth is His job.

==============================================================================================

But I doubt that that “the correct spiritual truth” that I “failed to comprehend”, was stated any more clearly than the other statements of Jesus that were described thus: “...It has been my observation that parables describe real things, often common things, that people can comprehend ... in order to reveal deeper spiritual truths.” The other statements were:
- The basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty – not faith, nor even “predestination”;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
- There is water available to place on those tongues;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades and in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, are experiencing agony in flames before they are judged;
--- (But isn’t it normally taught that the wicked will experience fiery torture in a place called Gehenna?
--- And not until after the resurrection and final judgement?
--- What do the creeds state?)

==============================================================================================

Actually, atpollard could strengthen his case immeasurably by adhering to the multiplicity of witnesses rule.

In this case he could simply supply the verses he referred to in the “Thoughts on the Annihilationism Thread” topic on 03-30-2018 (Post #45): “Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

Would it be inappropriate of me to ask him to do so?


==============================================================================================
 
Top Bottom