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  • Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
    Results 51 to 60 of 71

    Christian Theology - Thread: The Soul Survives Death

    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #45, MennoSota throws 1 Samuel 28:3,7-15,20 into the ring. That is another passage that is generally evaluated superficially from the background conditioning of “normal” Christendom. From that superficial perspective, the passage can indeed give the appearance of supporting the idea of a disembodied, independent, spirit life form surviving human death.

      We scratched the surface a little last time. Now let’s have a look at the conversation between Saul and the apparition he cannot see, and find out what we learn from that.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Samuel asks Saul why Saul has disturbed him and brought him up. Saul says it is because God won’t give him the time of day any more, and he needs advice. Samuel says that God has given the kingdom to David, that Saul and his sons will join Samuel in death, and that Israel will be handed to the Philistines. (Notice the “this day” used as emphasis.)

      Now it is Saul’s turn to go all wobbly, and he falls to the earth. The woman gives him a feed, he has a rest, and then he and companions take off.

      [[Note: Did Saul and his sons die in battle “tomorrow”, as translated? If not, then either the apparition gave a false prophecy, or we have another example of questionable translation.]]

      ================================================== ============================================

      We are not given any more information about the apparition. Did it disappear? Did it live until an older age and die again (like Lazarus)? Why did the apparition say it was disturbed, when it was supposed to be socialising with other righteous dead people in the “righteous side of Sheol” (Hades) as we are commonly told?

      There is nothing in this passage to indicate anything other than what God inspired OT writers to pen – that the dead lie at rest in the grave until they are raised at the future resurrection.


      ================================================== ============================================
      ...and that Samuel's spirit was alive and able to be summoned by ordination of God.

    2. #52
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #51:
      ...and that Samuel's spirit was alive and able to be summoned by ordination of God.
      Once again we see the bypassing of detail that would show that significant sounding, superficial statement to be untrue.

      1. The apparition did not appear directly to Saul. Why not? The real Samuel would have had no problem in doing so.
      2. The invisible apparition was said to be wearing a mantle. Where did a departed spirit living in a place of departed spirits, obtain a mantle? Was there a depart
      ment store for the departed?
      3. The apparition was said to ask, "Why have you {caused me to quake/disquieted me/enraged me/disturbed me} (according to the BDB lexicon) by bringing me up?" Is that something the real Samuel would have asked? Why?
      4. Were Saul and his sons killed the very next day? If not, then the apparition made a false prophecy – something that Samuel would never have done.
      5. The apparition was not “summoned by ordination of God”. Quite the opposite. The apparition appeared as a result of the application of evil arts that God had directly forbidden. The broader chapter itself says so. Leviticus 20:27 makes that very clear. I would personally be very careful about what I accuse God of.

      ================================================== ============================================

      So once again we’ve seen a significant sounding, superficial statement being used as support for a post-Nicene belief of ungodly origin.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    3. #53
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      I don't refer to souls as immortal souls, it isn't a biblical phrase. Immortality is from Yahweh. When anyone dies, death can cut off the soul. In the Bible, the soul can suffer in a righteous sentence. The soul in Christ does not have to face that, as there was repentance and Christ bore the suffering and all judgment for us. Immortality is just given in the resurrection, from God, when the redeemed rise bodily putting on incorruption.
      You can learn a lot about the way others are Christian by how they communicate when they disagree with what you say.

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    4. #54
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #16 (MoreCoffee): Do you think any of the bible is unreliable Pedrito?

      The question is a good one, embracing as it does, a number of aspects. The aspects include:
      - Major and minor textual differences between versions of individual writings;
      - The differences between the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version and the Hebrew (Masoretic) version of the “Old Testament”;
      - Identifiable additions to the original text;
      - Probable, but unprovable, additions to the original text;
      - Unidentifiable removals from the original text;
      - Obvious mistranslations into (in our case) English;
      - The deliberate imposition of retrofitted meanings onto some passages, to bolster post-Nicene beliefs.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Some years ago I stumbled across a website set up by an atheist. He did a great job of presenting evidence pertaining to many different perspectives, yet was not given to the belligerence displayed by some people of his persuasion, and by some “Christian” apologists. The text on the site was predominantly green from memory. Some of the information there presented, had strong relevance to considerations above. A few months later I was unable to find the site again, nor during subsequent tries. I mention this because if someone has come across that website, or does so in the future, I would love to be advised of one of the component URL’s. Thanks in advance.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In a following Post, the criteria above will be addressed in a little more detail, and the overriding providence of God revealed.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    5. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #16 (MoreCoffee): Do you think any of the bible is unreliable Pedrito?

      The question is a good one, embracing as it does, a number of aspects. The aspects include:
      - Major and minor textual differences between versions of individual writings;
      - The differences between the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version and the Hebrew (Masoretic) version of the “Old Testament”;
      - Identifiable additions to the original text;
      - Probable, but unprovable, additions to the original text;
      - Unidentifiable removals from the original text;
      - Obvious mistranslations into (in our case) English;
      - The deliberate imposition of retrofitted meanings onto some passages, to bolster post-Nicene beliefs.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Some years ago I stumbled across a website set up by an atheist. He did a great job of presenting evidence pertaining to many different perspectives, yet was not given to the belligerence displayed by some people of his persuasion, and by some “Christian” apologists. The text on the site was predominantly green from memory. Some of the information there presented, had strong relevance to considerations above. A few months later I was unable to find the site again, nor during subsequent tries. I mention this because if someone has come across that website, or does so in the future, I would love to be advised of one of the component URL’s. Thanks in advance.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In a following Post, the criteria above will be addressed in a little more detail, and the overriding providence of God revealed.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Major textual differences are something I would consider worth looking at. Minor differences are like spelling differences, not differences in meaning, so I wouldn't care about such.

      The Septuagint, itself a translation, and the Masoretic, should both be thoroughly checked, by those with knowledge of the languages. I don't distrust the Masoretic, some prefer the Septuagint, I see, but I found problems with trusting numbers and genealogy in it, so what is preserved through the Masoretic should be considered.

      There are seeming additions in the new testament of the Bible that I know about and recognize as such seeming additions. I don't know at all what was removed.

      I check a few different versions when I need further understanding from passages, that can be different enough in those. I check Blue Letter Bible for what is questionable, but I don't have to do that often.

      That is enough for checking, in my regular life, to still be of use to Yahweh God with his word.
      You can learn a lot about the way others are Christian by how they communicate when they disagree with what you say.

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    6. #56
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      First, let's define the word "SOUL" that I intend to demonstrate Scriptural support for surviving death.

      PSYCHE [G5590] ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

      Furthermore, I will distinguish it by the narrower usage applied to the immortal human soul defined in Thayer's Greek Lexicon as follows:

      b. the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life: 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17; ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς, James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20; σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).
      c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from τό σῶμα, as the other part of human nature (so in Greek writings from Isocrates and Xenophon down; cf. examples in Passow, under the word, p. 2589{a} bottom; Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)): Matthew 10:28, cf. 4 Macc. 13:14 (it is called ἀθάνατος, Herodotus 2, 123; Plato Phaedr., p. 245 c., 246 a., others; ἄφθαρτος, Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 14; διαλυθῆναι τήν ψυχήν ἀπό τοῦ σώματος, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 14); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul, Acts 2:27, 31 Rec.; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4 (Wis. 3:1; (on the Homeric use of the word, see Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word, 3, and references at the end, also Proudfit in Bib. Sacr. for 1858, pp. 753-805)).
      First, I am not arguing against seeing that souls do continue.

      Immortality is never a word used for souls in passages of the Bible. It is a conceivable characteristic of living. But living is a physical quality. We and all living animals are not the only living ones, there are fungi living, there are plants living, there are bacteria living. Yet we read in scripture of the living God, this is the case with God incarnating. And there is this.

      1 Timothy 6:15-16
      He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light.

      God alone has immortality, but ...

      1 Corinthians 15:52-54
      For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

      How is this true about this mortal putting on immortality, if God alone has immortality? It is consistent just with understanding that God alone has immortality to give. It can't be had from anywhere else, and it is given only according to God's plan.

      Souls are spoken of among living people and among living animals, in scriptures, indeed souls are anima, from which we have the word animal derived.

      What do scholars say the soul is?
      1. “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the Old Testament. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. The term psy•khe′ is the New Testament word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
      —New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.
      2. “The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”
      —The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

      What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
      Gen. 2:7: “God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is neʹphesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
      1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·kheʹ. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)
      Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from neʹphesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)
      Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

      Where does the Bible say that animals are souls?
      Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 25: “God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls* . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. . . . And God went on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds . . . ’ And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind.” (*In Hebrew the word here is neʹphesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature[s].”)
      Lev. 24:17, 18: “In case a man strikes any soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail. And the fatal striker of the soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] of a domestic animal should make compensation for it, soul for soul.” (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)
      Rev. 16:3: “It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul* died, yes, the things in the sea.” (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·kheʹ. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.”)
      You can learn a lot about the way others are Christian by how they communicate when they disagree with what you say.

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    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew
      What's the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire? Are they the same? The Lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, and hell will be thrown into the lake as the new Earth and new Heaven are created, is this likewise implying that Hell will be united with the Lake of Fire just as Earth and Heaven will be united?
      The lake of fire depicted in the Bible is Gehenna, it is a permanent destination for souls that were never truly repentant, where the devil and his direct servants would have already been cast. Hades mentioned in the Bible is often shown as hell in translations, it is not a permanent destination though. Those not in Christ would find themselves there when they die, it is still a miserable place, they wait and wait there, until the time of the appointed judgment, to be fairly sentenced to the right degree permanently in Gehenna. It is all that were in Hades that would be cast into that lake, Gehenna.

      The new Earth is what creation is restored to be, as it was meant to be in the creation originally, before there was the rebellion that was ongoing sin, with ongoing curse that grows, with that. All creation is groaning for that. That new Earth will surely be united with the new heaven, there will be the great mountain with the city of heaven, which stretches from heaven to the Earth.
      Last edited by FredVB; 08-17-2019 at 03:57 PM.
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    8. Likes Andrew, RichWh1 liked this post
    9. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by FredVB View Post
      The lake of fire depicted in the Bible is Gehenna, it is a permanent destination for souls that were never truly repentant, where the devil and his direct servants would have already been cast. Hades mentioned in the Bible is often shown as hell in translations, it is not a permanent destination though. Those not in Christ would find themselves there when they die, it is still a miserable place, they wait and wait there, until the time of the appointed judgment, to be fairly sentenced to the right degree permanently in Gehenna. It is all that were in Hades that would be cast into that lake, Gehenna.

      The new Earth is what creation is restored to be, as it was meant to be in the creation originally, before there was the rebellion that was ongoing sin, with ongoing curse that grows, with that. All creation is groaning for that. That new Earth will surely be united with the new heaven, there will be the great mountain with the city of heaven, which stretches from heaven to the Earth.
      Great answer I agree

    10. #59
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      A soul certainly continues on after death. Life is a physical phenomenon, and death is a physical state of a body as well. Immortality applies to life that can be bestowed on a body, with incorruptibility. It improperly applied as a term to a soul, people confuse that though and use that term with it, souls will continue on, as Yahweh God meant them to, redeemed if having come into Christ and relationship with God, or suffering just judgment for life of all their sin forever if not.
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    11. #60
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      ================================================== ============================================

      I was taken by atpollard’s apparent concern for my welfare as expressed in Post #46:
      Parables convey a spiritual truth.
      Arthur believes that you have failed to comprehend the correct spiritual truth conveyed by the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
      Arthur will pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, because illuminating God’s word to reveal the truth is His job.
      ================================================== ============================================

      But I doubt that that “the correct spiritual truth” that I “failed to comprehend”, was stated any more clearly than the other statements of Jesus that were described thus: “...It has been my observation that parables describe real things, often common things, that people can comprehend ... in order to reveal deeper spiritual truths.” The other statements were:
      - The basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty – not faith, nor even “predestination”;
      - Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
      - Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades, have tongues and eyes and ears;
      - There is water available to place on those tongues;
      - Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) righteous side of Hades and in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
      - Spirit beings (souls) in the (supposed) unrighteous side of Hades, are experiencing agony in flames before they are judged;
      --- (But isn’t it normally taught that the wicked will experience fiery torture in a place called Gehenna?
      --- And not until after the resurrection and final judgement?
      --- What do the creeds state?)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Actually, atpollard could strengthen his case immeasurably by adhering to the multiplicity of witnesses rule.

      In this case he could simply supply the verses he referred to in the “Thoughts on the Annihilationism Thread” topic on 03-30-2018 (Post #45): “Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

      Would it be inappropriate of me to ask him to do so?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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