Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

Particular said:

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
~ John 6:35-40

Click to expand...

Amen!

But nowhere does it say, "Thou canst not fall from faith." "Thou art saved by FORMER faith now renounced and absent."

Josiah said:

Amen!

But nowhere does it say, "Thou canst not fall from faith." "Thou art saved by FORMER faith now renounced and absent."

Click to expand...

What does it say?

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
~ John 6:39

Particular said:

What does it say?

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
~ John 6:39

Click to expand...

It says what it says. Read it.

It does not say, "And thou canst not fall from faith so that all the divine warnings are irrelevant and misleading." I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not that "One is saved even if faith be absent"

Josiah said:

It says what it says. Read it.

It does not say, "And thou canst not fall from faith so that all the divine warnings are irrelevant and misleading." I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not that "One is saved even if faith be absent"

Click to expand...

What does it say? Explain it to us.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

~ John 6:39

Particular said:

What does it say? Explain it to us.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

~ John 6:39

Click to expand...

It says what it says. It's Gospel. Read it. Permit the words to be normative rather than how you (or anyone) might desire to change them by "explaining" what God should have written instead of what He did.

It does not say, "And thou canst not fall from faith so that all the divine warnings are irrelevant and misleading." I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not that "One is saved even if faith be absent"

Josiah said:

It says what it says. It's Gospel. Read it. Permit the words to be normative rather than how you (or anyone) might desire to change them by "explaining" what God should have written instead of what He did.

It does not say, "And thou canst not fall from faith so that all the divine warnings are irrelevant and misleading." I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not that "One is saved even if faith be absent"

Click to expand...

You are not explaining it, Josiah. I am looking for you to directly explain the passage with your own words. I can read the verse. I know what I believe it says. I want to know what you believe the verse says.

What does it say? Explain it to us.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

~ John 6:39

Does the verse say that a person can fall from faith and thus Jesus will lose that individual?

We all hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Your opinion about falling from faith needs to be upheld by the solas. How do you defend your position when John 6:39 disagrees with your belief?

Particular said:

You are not explaining it, Josiah.

Click to expand...

As I said, I have no need to correct what God said; I'm 100% fine with exactly the words God used - nothin' added, nothin' deleted, nothin' changed. And I'm wondering why that's a big problem for you.

It does NOT say "Thou canst not fall from faith and thus all the many divine warnings about that are misleading at best." Those words aren't there, my friend. I'm not sure why it's SO impossible for you to note that.

What does it say?

Click to expand...

If you'll permit yourself to actually read the words (the ones there, not the ones not there) then you'll know.

How do you defend your position?

Click to expand...

By just quoting what God says. Nothin' added, deleted or changed by "explaning" what God SHOULD have said but didn't.

Here is "my" position on "Once Saved ALWAYS saved." (Which repudiates Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by eliminating the last aspect)


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations" needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.


It is wise is to accept all the scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. It is unwise to take one "set" and then argue all the rest are wrong and must be "explained away" so that they mean 180 degrees the opposite of what they say. I hold it is best to apply law where law is appropriate and Gospel where Gospel is appropriate (just as Scripture itself does). If you can't wrap your fallen, human, limited brain around the mysteries of God, well.... then you can't, it doesn't make God wrong.



A blessed Christmas Season to all...


- Josiah




.

Josiah said:

As I said, I have no need to correct what God said; I'm 100% fine with exactly the words God used - nothin' added, nothin' deleted, nothin' changed. And I'm wondering why that's a big problem for you.

It does NOT say "Thou canst not fall from faith and thus all the many divine warnings about that are misleading at best." Those words aren't there, my friend. I'm not sure why it's SO impossible for you to note that.








If you'll permit yourself to actually read the words (the ones there, not the ones not there) then you'll know.








By just quoting what God says. Nothin' added, deleted or changed by "explaning" what God SHOULD have said but didn't.

Here is "my" position on "Once Saved ALWAYS saved." (Which repudiates Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by eliminating the last aspect)


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations" needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.


It is wise is to accept all the scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. It is unwise to take one "set" and then argue all the rest are wrong and must be "explained away" so that they mean 180 degrees the opposite of what they say. I hold it is best to apply law where law is appropriate and Gospel where Gospel is appropriate (just as Scripture itself does). If you can't wrap your fallen, human, limited brain around the mysteries of God, well.... then you can't, it doesn't make God wrong.



A blessed Christmas Season to all...


- Josiah




.

Click to expand...

With all do respect, I have not asked you to correct scripture. I asked you to interpret scripture. So far you have refused to interpret John 6:37.

The mystery is why you refuse to interpret scripture, yet you are more than willing to tell us that Christians can fall away from a faith that God has given them.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Please interpret all the other verses you shared for us as well. I contend that you are missing the message and claiming a meaning that God is not claiming.

Your chance to explain yourself.

Particular said:

With all do respect, I asked you to interpret scripture.

Click to expand...

No need. The words are what they are and I accept them full and literally "as is." And note that they do not state what you do; the words do NOT state, "no one can fall from faith so that the dozens of warnings about that from God are irrelevant, meaningless and misleading." And the words do not say, "One is saved by faith they ONCE had but now repudiate and reject - doesn't matter if they have faith or not in salvation." Nope. If you can find those words in Scripture, present them but so far, you have not.


Here is "my" position on "Once Saved ALWAYS saved." (Which repudiates Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by eliminating the last aspect)


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations" needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.


It is wise is to accept all the scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. It is unwise to take one "set" and then argue all the rest are wrong and must be "explained away" so that they mean 180 degrees the opposite of what they say. I hold it is best to apply law where law is appropriate and Gospel where Gospel is appropriate (just as Scripture itself does). If you can't wrap your fallen, human, limited brain around the mysteries of God, well.... then you can't, it doesn't make God wrong.



A blessed Christmas Season to all...


- Josiah




.

double post

Josiah said:

No need. The words are what they are and I accept them full and literally "as is." And note that they do not state what you do; the words do NOT state, "no one can fall from faith so that the dozens of warnings about that from God are irrelevant, meaningless and misleading." And the words do not say, "One is saved by faith they ONCE had but now repudiate and reject - doesn't matter if they have faith or not in salvation." Nope. If you can find those words in Scripture, present them but so far, you have not.


Here is "my" position on "Once Saved ALWAYS saved." (Which repudiates Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by eliminating the last aspect)


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations" needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.


It is wise is to accept all the scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. It is unwise to take one "set" and then argue all the rest are wrong and must be "explained away" so that they mean 180 degrees the opposite of what they say. I hold it is best to apply law where law is appropriate and Gospel where Gospel is appropriate (just as Scripture itself does). If you can't wrap your fallen, human, limited brain around the mysteries of God, well.... then you can't, it doesn't make God wrong.



A blessed Christmas Season to all...


- Josiah




.

Click to expand...

I won't push anymore. You have made it clear you refuse to interpret scripture and thus you avoid your contradictions. I will leave you to your conundrums.

Particular said:

Josiah said:

Here is my position...


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations" needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.


It is wise is to accept all the scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. It is unwise to take one "set" and then argue all the rest are wrong and must be "explained away" so that they mean 180 degrees the opposite of what they say. I hold it is best to apply law where law is appropriate and Gospel where Gospel is appropriate (just as Scripture itself does). If you can't wrap your fallen, human, limited brain around the mysteries of God, well.... then you can't, it doesn't make God wrong.


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You have made it clear you refuse to interpret scripture and thus you avoid your contradictions.

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1. No need to explain away anything by substituting your opinion for the words God provides via anyone's "interpretation."


2. Clearly, obviously, you can't find any verse that says what you do: "Thou canst not fall from faith so all those numerous divine warnings about that are irrelevant, meaningless and misleading." IF such a verse existed, you would present it to support your dogma and to contradict what I posted, but you can't find it. We all know why. And you can't find the verse that says, "Thou canst be saved by faith thou ONCE had but now clearly repudiate and reject because faith don't matter." IF such a verse existed, you would have presented it but you can't find that verse. And we all know why.


3. We have Law and Gospel. God is not "contradicting" himself as you insist, and I"M not "contradicting MYSELF" as you insist because all I've done is quoted GOD (verbatim), you are holding that GOD is contradiction Himself. In amazing ego, you seem to be insisting that you do God a favor and correct His "contradiction" via your own "interpretation" so that you change what God states and thus get Him out of trouble with His contradictions. I lack your ego and disrespect for Scripture. My God is big enough to not contradict Himself - and if I can't wrap my brain around what He says, I sense the the problem is with me whereas you assume it's with God. My counsel to you is for you to reconsider your assumption there.


4. Law and Gospel are not "contradictions of God". They are just different things to be applied in different ways.




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Josiah said:

1. No need to explain away anything by substituting your opinion for the words God provides via anyone's "interpretation."


2. Clearly, obviously, you can't find any verse that says what you do: "Thou canst not fall from faith so all those numerous divine warnings about that are irrelevant, meaningless and misleading." IF such a verse existed, you would present it to support your dogma and to contradict what I posted, but you can't find it. We all know why. And you can't find the verse that says, "Thou canst be saved by faith thou ONCE had but now clearly repudiate and reject because faith don't matter." IF such a verse existed, you would have presented it but you can't find that verse. And we all know why.


3. We have Law and Gospel. God is not "contradicting" himself as you insist, and I"M not "contradicting MYSELF" as you insist because all I've done is quoted GOD (verbatim), you are holding that GOD is contradiction Himself. In amazing ego, you seem to be insisting that you do God a favor and correct His "contradiction" via your own "interpretation" so that you change what God states and thus get Him out of trouble with His contradictions. I lack your ego and disrespect for Scripture. My God is big enough to not contradict Himself - and if I can't wrap my brain around what He says, I sense the the problem is with me whereas you assume it's with God. My counsel to you is for you to reconsider your assumption there.


4. Law and Gospel are not "contradictions of God". They are just different things to be applied in different ways.




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I can read.
You fail to interpret scripture by willfully not doing so. Our conversation is done until you actually interpret scripture rather than claiming you have no need to do so.

Josiah said:

I continue to hold to BOTH the truth of the Law and the truth of the Gospel on this point, as expressed before.

You continue to accuse me of stating that "eternal security" is horrible but as everyone here knows, I never have. I said that Once Saved ALWAYS saved" is horrible.

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You have said it according to what I saw for myself. Eternal security is being always saved when already once saved. They are the same thing, to say otherwise is meaningless distinction for it.

I continue to hold to BOTH the truth of the Law and the truth of the Gospel on this point, as expressed before.

And of course, every single one of the Law passages quoted is either WRONG, entirely irrelevant or horribly misleading if what they warn about isn't possible. And not one one of them mentions "enough" faith or "sufficient" faith or "genuine" faith or "sincere" faith or any of the other qualifiers you impute. And I disagree with the whole idea that it's not the object of faith that matters but the quanitity and quality of faith - it MUST be sufficiently genuine, sincere, and of enough quantity. Jesus is the Savior. Faith - of any quality or quality - that is in Christ thus means the Savior saves us. I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

I hold that Abraham had faith and that was the gift of God.

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You use the term Law like have not seen others use it. 2 Peter 3:9 shows Yahweh God is not willing that any just perish, but would that all would come to repentance for salvation, which is through Christ. 1 John 1:7 shows that if we walk in the Light as he is in the Light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ is what cleanses us from all sin. Who falls away? 1 John 2:19 shows that they went out from us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. And what he promised us is eternal life, 1 John 1:25. 1 John 5:11 shows that we who are believers have eternal life. This applied to Abraham. Yahweh God revealed himself to Abram to start with, and provided for him to have faith. And he had to be tried for this faith, Abraham had to respond for that. As the faith was real, Abraham continued with it, and God kept him with that.

FredVB said:

Eternal security is being always saved when already once saved. They are the same thing, to say otherwise is meaningless distinction for it.

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It's not the same thing. To say "one IS saved because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" is not the same as "one WILL always be saved because at one time there was Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide but no more"

I hold that Grace certainly always is in place - for everyone, always. Christ's atoning word is certianly always in place - for everyone, always. But does everyone always have faith? No. IMO, insisting that one is saved without faith in Christ is a false teaching.



Is it impossible for one to loose faith? Well, if so, then all the verses below (and very many more) are misleading at best and more likely wrong.

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."







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FredVB said:

Eternal security is being always saved when already once saved. They are the same thing, to say otherwise is meaningless distinction for it.

You use the term Law like have not seen others use it. 2 Peter 3:9 shows Yahweh God is not willing that any just perish, but would that all would come to repentance for salvation, which is through Christ. 1 John 1:7 shows that if we walk in the Light as he is in the Light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ is what cleanses us from all sin. Who falls away? 1 John 2:19 shows that they went out from us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. And what he promised us is eternal life, 1 John 1:25. 1 John 5:11 shows that we who are believers have eternal life. This applied to Abraham. Yahweh God revealed himself to Abram to start with, and provided for him to have faith. And he had to be tried for this faith, Abraham had to respond for that. As the faith was real, Abraham continued with it, and God kept him with that.

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Josiah said:

It's not the same thing. To say "one IS saved because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" is not the same as "one WILL always be saved because at one time there was Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide but no more"

I hold that Grace certainly always is in place - for everyone, always. Christ's atoning word is certianly always in place - for everyone, always. But does everyone always have faith? No. IMO, insisting that one is saved without faith in Christ is a false teaching.

Is it impossible for one to loose faith? Well, if so, then all the verses below (and very many more) are misleading at best and more likely wrong.

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

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If one IS saved, one IS always saved, and always will be. Otherwise being saved doesn't mean anything at all. Being saved is being secure in Christ, no one can grasp us out of God's hand, we are assured of eternal life already, the eternal life is an existing thing, it never stops existing, so we really have it, there are those otherwise that never have it. God who gives any eternal life is never fooled. If eternal life is lost it was not real, because it was not eternal life after all. We only don't have it if we never actually repented to really come to God. Those who went out from us were not of us, if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out and it was manifested none of them were ever of us. With that real repentance, God keeps us securely.

Judas Iscariot was chosen and was in Jesus's circle of disciples who went with Jesus. We can say that he was called and that grace was given to Judas. He ultimately had something to say about it himself, with it being his choice. Individuals can turn from it, though they were not saved such that they had eternal life provided to them, in Christ. That is effectual.

FredVB said:

If one IS saved, one IS always saved, and always will be.

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IS does not equal ALWAYS WILL BE. It is March 24, it won't always be.


One IS saved because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Faith is an aspect of that. True - Grace is a constant, Christ's atoning work is a constant, but it is NOT true that faith is a constant (ALWAYS existing EVERYWHERE no matter what). If faith were a constant, then EVERYONE would be saved - EVERYONE including atheists, Buddhists, and everyone who denies God and Christ and the Cross. I reject the Universalism you suggest, this salvation apart from faith.


Is it impossible for one to loose faith? Well, if not, then all the verses below (and very many more) are misleading at best and more likely wrong.

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Read and believe.

It is impossible to "fall away" from what one never had. It is impossible to "not remain faithful" if they never were. It is impossible to "abandon" what what doesn't have.

Now, yes, there are Gospel verses too (which have already been posted and you choose NOT to ignore and reject) but the above, you simply seem to ignore and reject (or radically SPIN so that you make them "mean' the exact opposite of what they clearly and obviously say - choosing NOT to do the identical thing with the Gospel verses that "jibe" with your theories).




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Josiah said:

IS does not equal ALWAYS WILL BE. It is March 24, it won't always be.


One IS saved because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Faith is an aspect of that. True - Grace is a constant, Christ's atoning work is a constant, but it is NOT true that faith is a constant (ALWAYS existing EVERYWHERE no matter what). If faith were a constant, then EVERYONE would be saved - EVERYONE including atheists, Buddhists, and everyone who denies God and Christ and the Cross. I reject the Universalism you suggest, this salvation apart from faith.


Is it impossible for one to loose faith? Well, if not, then all the verses below (and very many more) are misleading at best and more likely wrong.

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Read and believe.

It is impossible to "fall away" from what one never had. It is impossible to "not remain faithful" if they never were. It is impossible to "abandon" what what doesn't have.

Now, yes, there are Gospel verses too (which have already been posted and you choose NOT to ignore and reject) but the above, you simply seem to ignore and reject (or radically SPIN so that you make them "mean' the exact opposite of what they clearly and obviously say - choosing NOT to do the identical thing with the Gospel verses that "jibe" with your theories).




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Either God saves us and keeps us (John 10) or God saves us, but we humans can squirm out of God's saving grace and unsave ourselves, which makes God impotent to save us.

Which one is it?

Particular said:

What does it say?

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
~ John 6:39

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Yup, that's God's will.... indeed it is God's will that EVERYONE be saved. Are they?

Particular said:

Either God saves us and keeps us (John 10) or God saves us, but we humans can squirm out of God's saving grace and unsave ourselves, which makes God impotent to save us.

Which one is it?

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Neither. What is true is what God says.

Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are 100% true. Verbatim. No changes or "explanations"or denials or satire needed in order to make them say something other than what they do.

Read. Believe. Stop doubting and denying.




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