Common Figure of Speech?

Pedrito · Jul 14, 2018

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This is the second Post in a series of three, investigating the number of days that transpired between Jesus’ burial and resurrection. I.e. for how many days was He actually buried?

Let’s look at the second aspect to be considered.

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Could the chief priests and Pharisees count or not?

The chief priests and Pharisees were educated men. We can assume they could count. So what was recorded in Matthew 27:62-64?:
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

We see here that "after three days" (quoting Jesus in Mark 8:31) means the same as "the third day" in Jewish vernacular thought patterns.

So does that mean that "after three days" actually means "the third day", or "the third day" actually mean "after three days"?

We are told that the former is what we must understand – that "after three days" actually means "the third day". The contrived reasoning upon which that proposition is based, in its all-inclusive form, can be summarised thus:
- The same time period can be referred to as both "three days" and "three days and three nights";
- Therefore "three days and three nights" actually means "three days";
- The term "days" includes part days;
- Therefore "three days and three nights"actually means one full day and two part days;
- And "the third day" refers to the second part day;
- And also, "after three days" means "some time after that part of the second part day being referred to".

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Some obvious problems with that approach are:
- The meaning of "days" in "three days and three nights" is "daylight hours";
- The meaning of "days" in "three days" is "whole days" or "whole days surrounded by part days";
- Therefore, the term "three days and three nights" defines a specific time period;
.. - Unless it means "one full day and one full night and two part days and two part nights, or a convenient combination to suit an arguement;
- If "the third day" means a part day, until what hour of that part day was Pilate supposed to guard the tomb?;
- And why only until then, when both Jesus and the requesters said He would rise after that time?

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We thus see exposed the inbuilt illogicality of the “traditional” reasoning invoked to support the Friday-Sunday timeline.

But that’s not all! The timeline as recorded in the Scriptures themselves, is patently revealing. We’ll see that next time.

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rstrats · Jul 14, 2018

Pedrito,
"We thus see exposed the inbuilt illogicality of the 'traditional' reasoning invoked to support the Friday-Sunday timeline."

Is this your way of saying that you don't believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion?

And the rest of your post deals with issues for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one.

rstrats · Jul 14, 2018

So far no examples have been provided, but maybe someone new looking in might know of some.

psalms 91 · Jul 14, 2018

You might want to explore the high sabbeth that occurs because of Passover to resolve the issue

rstrats · Jul 14, 2018

psalms91,
re: "You might want to explore the high sabbeth that occurs because of Passover to resolve the issue"

You didn't address your post to anyone, but if it's intended for me I'm afraid I don't see how the high sabbeth during Passover provides the issue of examples which show actual instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it does?

psalms 91 · Jul 14, 2018

Simple the high sabbeth would be a second sabbeth that week and would explain the discrepancy very nicely

Albion · Jul 14, 2018

rstrats said:
Albion,
re: "Excuse me, but it is about speculation over the day on which Our Lord rose from the grave."

And again, that is not what it is about. It's about providing examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be or was involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

re: "What you want to bring in is the reasoning given by one side of the argument..."

That is incorrect. I'm merely looking for actual examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be or was involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

Is the quote function as it works on this forum something you are having trouble using?

rstrats · Jul 15, 2018

psalms 91,

re: "Simple the high sabbeth would be a second sabbeth that week and would explain the discrepancy very nicely"

Indeed, but that's an issue for a different topic.

rstrats · Jul 15, 2018

Albion,
re: "Is the quote function as it works on this forum something you are having trouble using?"

It seems simple enough, but for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on, I prefer not to. Kinda like for some reason folks here prefer not to be responsive to the request in the OP in favor of other issues.

Albion · Jul 15, 2018

Very well. I thought that you might actually be having a problem with the mechanics of it. The current style does tend to complicate things for the reader, just as in the case of another regular poster here who usually wins up confusing everyone or putting them off, in part because his style is similarly awkward.

Pedrito · Jul 16, 2018

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This Post is an aside. It is an insertion into the main sequence of evidence presentation.

It deals with other diversionary stuff that has arisen. I have paused to show that it is definitely diversionary. So that Readers can ponder why the diversion was deemed necessary.

But as I said before, the evidence will end up being presented anyway. Any attempts to diminish its importance or credence are doomed to failure. The importance will be clear to all Readers. Readers will naturally be free to accept it or reject the evidence as they wish. (Or be predestined to do so, might some environments suggest?)

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In Post #1 rstrats requested examples of common figures of speech relating to measuring time in days. He specifically mentioned the particular “three days and three nights” relating to Jesus’ death and resurrection.

In Post #4 I showed with a definitive example, that two counting mechanisms were in common usage – one which counted part days as whole days, and one which did not. I said there was more information to come. I reiterated that in Post #6.

rstrats in Post #17 stated: Again, the topic request for examples is with regard to the commonality of forecasting a daytime or a night time when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.

In Post #21 I presented one particular item of evidence (which was also another example as requested by rstrats), that the “three days and three nights” stated by Jesus actually meant a full three periods of daylight and three full periods of darkness. I indicated yet again, that there was still more evidence to come.

rstrats then said in Post #22 [blank lines removed to conserve space]: Pedrito,
"We thus see exposed the inbuilt illogicality of the 'traditional' reasoning invoked to support the Friday-Sunday timeline."
Is this your way of saying that you don't believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion?
And the rest of your post deals with issues for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one.

He further stated in Post #23: So far no examples have been provided, but maybe someone new looking in might know of some.

And here was I thinking that my Post, dealing as it did with common figures of speech relating to counting days and nights, and with particular reference to Jesus’ death and resurrection (as was focussed on in the original Post) – here was I thinking that that Post was right on target (right on topic). And have I not indeed provided examples that are spot on (demonstrably pertinent)?

Let’s see what the next evidential Post reveals.

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rstrats · Jul 16, 2018

Pedrito,
re: "...have I not indeed provided examples that are spot on (demonstrably pertinent)?"

Not that I have seen. I have not seen even 1 actual instance provided where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

Pedrito · Jul 27, 2018

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This was intended to be the last Post in a series of three, investigating the number of days that transpired between Jesus’ burial and resurrection. I.e. for how many days was He actually buried? (But space restriction is forcing me to split it.)

Let’s look at the third aspect to be considered.

(BTW, I draw my rubber sword in defence against rstrats statement in Post #32: I have not seen even 1 actual instance provided where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. My presenting in Post #21 the example of Jesus’ own words (rstrats originally introduced them) actually contradicts that statement. Jesus’ words were: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40) )

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What was the important time line defined by the Bible itself?

Tracking the women gives us a definite time line – a clear time line that should not need any confirmation, but which can be confirmed conclusively if required. Unfortunately that clear time line does end up needing confirmation. It needs confirmation because it is consistently subject to strong resistance (absolute denial, in fact). That denial is absolutely necessary, because the scriptural time line poses a serious threat to a particular cherished belief of pagan origin.

What is the Biblical time line? And how is it a threat?

Matthew 27:55-56 tells us that many women witnessed the crucifixion. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons. Mark 15:14-41 gives similar information. Luke 23:27 informs us that a large number of people, including women accompanied Him to the place of execution. John 19:25-36 mentions his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, as being at the crucifixion site.

In Mark 15:34 we are told that Jesus died at around 3:00PM. So the women were there until at least 3:00PM.

Luke 23:55 tells us that the women accompanied the body to the tomb and watched its internment. The previous verse informs us that sundown was approaching. Matthew 27:61 mentions Mary Magdalene and the other Mary watching.

Luke 23:56 tells us that thereafter, the women went home and prepared spices and perfumes, and that they rested on the Sabbath day as commanded by God.

So where does that lead?

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Continued…

Albion · Jul 27, 2018

Pedrito said:
In Mark 15:34 we are told that Jesus died at around 3:00PM. So the women were there until at least 3:00PM.

Luke 23:55 tells us that the women accompanied the body to the tomb and watched its internment. The previous verse informs us that sundown was approaching. Matthew 27:61 mentions Mary Magdalene and the other Mary watching.

Luke 23:56 tells us that thereafter, the women went home and prepared spices and perfumes, and that they rested on the Sabbath day as commanded by God.

So where does that lead?

To a Sunday Resurrection

psalms 91 · Jul 27, 2018

Albion said:
To a Sunday Resurrection

To a second sabbeth that week, a high sabbeth, not a problem when viewed properly

Albion · Jul 27, 2018

The verses that were cited, however, do not point to any second sabbath.

psalms 91 · Jul 27, 2018

All I can say is study it. Concerns Passover and a holy day connected with that, you can go from there.

rstrats · Jul 27, 2018

Pedrito,
re: "This was intended to be the last Post in a series of three, investigating the number of days that transpired between Jesus’ burial and resurrection."

That's an issue for a different topic.

re: "(BTW, I draw my rubber sword in defence against rstrats statement in Post #32: I have not seen even 1 actual instance provided where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. My presenting in Post #21 the example of Jesus’ own words (rstrats originally introduced them) actually contradicts that statement. "

I do not see anything in your post #21 which shows examples, i.e., actual instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Pedrito · Aug 8, 2018

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In Post # 33 we followed the women who were Jesus’ companions, and established a timeline up to Luke 23:56. Luke 23:56 tells us that after Jesus was buried, the women went home and prepared spices and perfumes, and that they rested on the Sabbath day as commanded by God.

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That is all well and good, but Mark 16:1 tells us: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. So they bought spices after the sabbath, prepared them, then rested the sabbath. There were two sabbaths, with an intervening normal day. (The “had” that is added in some translations, is ill-fitting in the context, and thus is artificially inserted.)

That after-the-sabbath statement is totally incontrovertible. The women went home without detour after Jesus was buried. And the proper translation of Mark 16:1 (When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. NIV – no “had”) confirms that.

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But just in case (as is always the case, in fact) the Friday-Sunday belief-cherishers try playing (for instance) the “they bought the spices on the way home from the tomb” card, one simple question shows just how contrived that attempt is.

Question: At what time of the day did the shops close before a sabbath day? (It is the same time that Orthodox Jews have continued to close their shops around the world throughout history, and still do today.)

Answer: around 3:00PM in the afternoon – the time at which the women were watching Jesus die, and well before the burial. Therefore, the women couldn’t have bought spices that day. They couldn’t have bought them until after the approaching Holy Day had ended.

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But there is yet a second card the Friday-Sunday belief-cherishers try playing as a rearguard action (if faced with the shop closing hours consideration).

Do Readers know what that is? Or can Readers guess?

We’ll look at that next time. (And finalise with certainty the meaning of the “three days and three nights” common figure of speech.)

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Pedrito · Aug 20, 2018

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In Post # 39 we saw that the Jewish shops were closed long before the women who were with Jesus at His crucifixion and accompanied His body and watched as it was buried, had time to shop for the spices. (Quite apart from the Inspired Biblical Record telling us that the women bought spices after the sabbath – which must have been the first of two, because they then rested on the sabbath after preparing those spices – a second sabbath.)

But not to be deprived of a last-ditch stand, the Friday-Sunday belief-cherishers have yet one last card in reserve. They say that the shops run by the pagans (gentiles) in their midst would have remained open, and the women would have bought the spices there.

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There are two rather obvious problems with that argument.

The first is that a strong priority of the Roman occupiers was to keep the peace – to keep the lid on unrest. It was that consideration that prompted Pontius Pilate’s capitulation to the restive Jewish crowd. (A mishandling of a later incident led to his ultimate recall to Rome.) If the gentiles had tried to keep their shops open, there would have been a riot. Those shopkeepers would have been in big trouble with the Roman authorities, and they knew it.

But more importantly, let’s have a look at Acts 10:27-28 – Jewish Peter visiting the gentile Cornelius:
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The women wouldn’t have been seen dead walking into a gentile shop. Nor would they have considered using religiously contaminated (unclean) spices on the body of their Beloved One.

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The Holy Scripture is unequivocal. The rearguard actions fail.

There were two sabbaths and an intervening day between Jesus’ crucifixion and His resurrection.

He was in the tomb for three whole days (three days and three nights) just as He said He would be.

And the stated request of rstrats in Post #17 (Again, the topic request for examples is with regard to the commonality of forecasting a daytime or a night time when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.) has been satisfied by the example that has the most unequivocal evidence both from Scripture and from the religious cultural society of Jesus’ day.

And once again, Readers can reevaluate where their true loyalties actually lie, should they wish to.

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Common Figure of Speech?

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