How you view, and how He viewed, His murder

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,485
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
It should be crystal clear when reading the Gospels (specifically, Matthew and John), that Christ had harsh words and criticism for those who were plotting to murder Him. Although He predicted His death at their hands, nevertheless he had no kind words for their plots and their actions.

A critical example is Judas Iscariot. When he takes the bread dipped in the dish, Scriptures say that Satan entered him. Did this man crucify Christ? No, he was merely paid money - 30 silver peices - to betray him to those that would order it.

Of the disciples, Christ says this:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

At the time of speaking, the only lost one among the disciples is Judas Iscariot. Again, this Judas does not command the death of Christ, he doesn't nail him to a cross, he merely accepts money to have him captured.

Christians often have a dim view of Judas, and an even dimmer view of the Jewish leadership who rallied for His death. The Romans? Servants of these Jewish leaders for fear of the people it seems.

My simple question is:

If you are a Christian who believes you are saved through the murder of Jesus and the Resurrection, why would you have a dim view of any of these parties? You are, after all, agreeing that it had to happen. You are agreeing that murdering the Messiah was necessary so you can get to heaven. Sure, by proxy of some people that lived a long time ago, but nevertheless you are agreeing with murder.

And yet, Christ doesn't. He says it's going to happen. He predicts it. But He also condemns it as evil.

Can you also condemn it, seeing as you see it as necessary for your salvation?

Can you admit that your doublemindedness only applies here, and not to other murders and murderers you come across? You come across evil people in life or hear about them somehow, and you in no wise agree with their murdering actions. However this agreement is simply not possible if you are saved through their actions.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
As a man in human nature Jesus didn't want to die, those who crucified him were evil and he knew this was going to happen eventually. Gnostics after that era actually sympathised with Judas because they believe it was his duty, but Jesus didn't know when for only the Father knows these things, Jesus even acts a bit surprised because he asked "you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?". So yep the devil called the shot through Judas first

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Jesus was never murdered. Jesus/God chose the means by He would pay for the sins of His chosen children.
God is never helpless and never incapable of choice.
It's a silly statement to say Jesus was murdered.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
As a man in human nature Jesus didn't want to die, those who crucified him were evil and he knew this was going to happen eventually. Gnostics after that era actually sympathised with Judas because they believe it was his duty, but Jesus didn't know when for only the Father knows these things, Jesus even acts a bit surprised because he asked "you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?". So yep the devil called the shot through Judas first

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

No, The devil never called even one shot. In John 6 Jesus said that one of the people he chose was a devil and would betray him. He was never taken by surprise.
Jesus correctly told Pilate that his angels were ready at His command. Jesus always fulfilled the will of God.
It is appalling to me when people believe that some created being "called the shots" over God Himself.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
No, The devil never called even one shot. In John 6 Jesus said that one of the people he chose was a devil and would betray him. He was never taken by surprise.
Jesus correctly told Pilate that his angels were ready at His command. Jesus always fulfilled the will of God.
It is appalling to me when people believe that some created being "called the shots" over God Himself.
Well this conversation can go into a whole nother level.
Jesus knew his fate I agree but God did not direct the evil, the evil was apparent obviously.
All I'm saying is that the OP seems to imply that I am double minded and see Christ's death as the work of evil opposed to Gods glorious will and promise to both the Jews and Gentile alike of humanities savior and redeemer.

I guess I can see what strav was trying to get across, interesting topic
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Well this conversation can go into a whole nother level.
Jesus knew his fate I agree but God did not direct the evil, the evil was apparent obviously.
All I'm saying is that the OP seems to imply that I am double minded and see Christ's death as the work of evil opposed to Gods glorious will and promise to both the Jews and Gentile alike of humanities savior and redeemer.

I guess I can see what strav was trying to get across, interesting topic

God the Father ordained that God the Son would be the propitiation for His adopted children. It was God's good pleasure to make a way by which rebels could be reconciled to Him. Evil, rebels acted in accordance with God's ordained will. We see in Habakkuk that God does such things when He tells Habakkuk that He (God) raised up the wicked Babylonians to accomplish His will in reprimanding Judah.
We must stop imagining that events happen outside of God's authority. We must realize that God is always in control.
 

TurtleHare

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2015
Messages
1,057
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
It should be crystal clear when reading the Gospels (specifically, Matthew and John), that Christ had harsh words and criticism for those who were plotting to murder Him. Although He predicted His death at their hands, nevertheless he had no kind words for their plots and their actions.

A critical example is Judas Iscariot. When he takes the bread dipped in the dish, Scriptures say that Satan entered him. Did this man crucify Christ? No, he was merely paid money - 30 silver peices - to betray him to those that would order it.

Of the disciples, Christ says this:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

At the time of speaking, the only lost one among the disciples is Judas Iscariot. Again, this Judas does not command the death of Christ, he doesn't nail him to a cross, he merely accepts money to have him captured.

Christians often have a dim view of Judas, and an even dimmer view of the Jewish leadership who rallied for His death. The Romans? Servants of these Jewish leaders for fear of the people it seems.

My simple question is:

If you are a Christian who believes you are saved through the murder of Jesus and the Resurrection, why would you have a dim view of any of these parties? You are, after all, agreeing that it had to happen. You are agreeing that murdering the Messiah was necessary so you can get to heaven. Sure, by proxy of some people that lived a long time ago, but nevertheless you are agreeing with murder.

And yet, Christ doesn't. He says it's going to happen. He predicts it. But He also condemns it as evil.

Can you also condemn it, seeing as you see it as necessary for your salvation?

Can you admit that your doublemindedness only applies here, and not to other murders and murderers you come across? You come across evil people in life or hear about them somehow, and you in no wise agree with their murdering actions. However this agreement is simply not possible if you are saved through their actions.

Jesus gave up his spirit and how is that murder in your eyes? He could have remained on that cross forever if he wanted to in order to make a point and that means his time of death was his choice.
 
Top Bottom