Jesus died for the sins of the world

Josiah

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'Jesus is the God/man' was to counter your pulling the 'Apostle Card' (even though all Scripture is inspired by God).

I did not "pull the Apostle card." An apologetic was that "no Apostle in the book of acts stated that Jesus died for all." I simply noted
1. Apostles did state EXACTLY THAT in other books.
2. I disagree that all truths must be stated by an Apostle in the singular book of Acts.


A couple of interesting translations...

Contemporary English Version
I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives up his life for his sheep.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.

Yes. And so Limited Atonement is entirely missing. These verses are certainly true but they do not say that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep. And the ONLY is the essential aspect of Limited Atonement.

We find our Calvinist friend using a logical fallacy here. One illustrated by this: "Ford makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Or "I love my wife, ergo I ONLY love my wife and hate my children."

Theology should not be based squarely on a logical fallacy and on the complete absence of any Scripture that substantiates that and that flies in the face of many, verbatim, statements of Scripture of the EXACT OPPOSITE.




.


 

prism

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I did not "pull the Apostle card." An apologetic was that "no Apostle in the book of acts stated that Jesus died for all." I simply noted
1. Apostles did state EXACTLY THAT in other books.
2. I disagree that all truths must be stated by an Apostle in the singular book of Acts.
See your post #441.
Yes. And so Limited Atonement is entirely missing. These verses are certainly true but they do not say that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep. And the ONLY is the essential aspect of Limited Atonement.
Interestingly, those were the only two versions which inserted the words 'His sheep'; all the other versions say 'the sheep'.

For example:
John 10:11 (KJV) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

But I believe the context of John 10 is 'His sheep', even though a verse or two say 'the sheep'.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yeah. I explained how you misunderstood the meaning of that particular word and that in the original language from which it was translated in the King James Version, the word has a meaning more like "were inclined to."
Your observation is correct, or at the very least is one possible perspective that can be justified from the text in Greek.

audientes autem gentes gavisae sunt et glorificabant verbum Domini et crediderunt quotquot erant praeordinati ad vitam aeternam.

English translation from the Vulgate Latin gives this:
Then the Gentiles, upon hearing this, were gladdened, and they were glorifying the Word of the Lord. And as many as believed were preordained to eternal life.​
Acts 13:48
Which reads like those who believed were [possibly because of their belief] preordained to eternal life.

@1689Dave is inclined to interpret a verse according to his theology and then proclaim his interpretation to be the meaning - the only valid meaning - of the verse without allowing the possibility that other meanings may be present and that one or more of the other meanings may fit the general teaching of holy scripture better than the interpretation that he favours. This is a common issue in discussions online, where some people have their opinion and push it with all their strength without acknowledging that other views exist and that one of those other views may be the truth.

As a footnote to the above, it is worth observing that in the Greek text the word order is as follows:
ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ Κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·​
(word order is not as important in Greek as it is in English because Greek relies on word endings to convey meaning, where English relies on word order to convey meaning)​
᾿Ακούοντα Hearing δὲ but τὰ the ἔθνη nations ἔχαιρον were rejoicing καὶ and ἐδόξαζον they were glorifying τὸν the λόγον word τοῦ of the θεοῦ, God, καὶ and ἐπίστευσαν believed ὅσοι as many as ἦσαν were τεταγμένοι having been disposed εἰςin to ζωὴν life αἰώνιον ·everlasting;​
Which is close to the Latin word order and which the English translation that I gave reflects accurately. This evidence is not conclusive but it is nevertheless in favour of translating the verse with an English meaning of "because they believed they were as a consequence pre-ordained to eternal life". Which is rather close to the doctrine of the early Church Fathers and of most Christians living today.
 
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MoreCoffee

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This evidence is not conclusive but it is nevertheless in favour of translating the verse with an English meaning of "because they believed they were as a consequence pre-ordained to eternal life". Which is rather close to the doctrine of the early Church Fathers and of most Christians living today.
Here is a comment from a Catholic priest of the 19th century. His stated view, and the views from other authors who he quotes, differs a little from what I have written. But it is good to see what views are present and why they are present.

As many as were pre-ordained to eternal life,[Præordinati, Greek: tetagmenoi, on which St. John Chrysostom says, Greek: toutesti aphorismenoi, prædefiniti.] by the free election, and special mercies, and providence of God. (Witham)
--- Some understand this as if it meant, predisposed by their docility, to receive the word of life. But the Fathers unanimously understand it literally of predestination, which is defined by St. Thomas Aquinas, serm. i. qu. 23. a. 1.​
"The disposition of God, by which he prepares, what he will himself perform, according to his infallible foreknowledge."​
In other words, it is the manner in which God conducts a reasonable creature to its proper destiny, which is eternal life.​
In this mystery of the Catholic faith, which cannot be clearly explained to human understanding, because it is a mystery, there are nevertheless several points, which we know for certain.​
  • 1st. Though it is certain, that this decree of the Almighty is infallible, and must have its effect, yet it is far removed from the blasphemy of Calvinists, who pretend that it destroys free-will, and therefore removes all motives of exertion to good works.
  • 2nd. For it is a point of Catholic faith, that this foreknowledge of the Almighty no ways interferes with man’s liberty, but leaves him still a perfectly free agent, and therefore responsible for his actions.
  • 3rd. It is likewise decreed by the Council of Trent, that no one can certainly know that he is of the number of the predestined, without a special revelation to that effect.
These are the most essential points, which it concerns us to know of this doctrine. As to the consequences which may be drawn from these positions, it were better for us to submit our understandings to the obedience of faith, than entangle ourselves in a maze of abstruse errors, far removed from our comprehension. Would that this sober line of conduct were pursued by many moderns, who at present talk and write so much on this subject, and to such little purpose. How excellently well does the great genius of the Latin Church, St. Augustine, say: Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de occultis! How much wiser and better is it to confess our ignorance on mysteries, than idly to dispute on mysteries! (lib. viii. de Gen. ad litt. chap. 5.)​
 

1689Dave

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Here is a comment from a Catholic priest of the 19th century. His stated view, and the views from other authors who he quotes, differs a little from what I have written. But it is good to see what views are present and why they are present.

As many as were pre-ordained to eternal life,[Præordinati, Greek: tetagmenoi, on which St. John Chrysostom says, Greek: toutesti aphorismenoi, prædefiniti.] by the free election, and special mercies, and providence of God. (Witham)
--- Some understand this as if it meant, predisposed by their docility, to receive the word of life. But the Fathers unanimously understand it literally of predestination, which is defined by St. Thomas Aquinas, serm. i. qu. 23. a. 1.​
"The disposition of God, by which he prepares, what he will himself perform, according to his infallible foreknowledge."​
In other words, it is the manner in which God conducts a reasonable creature to its proper destiny, which is eternal life.​
In this mystery of the Catholic faith, which cannot be clearly explained to human understanding, because it is a mystery, there are nevertheless several points, which we know for certain.​
  • 1st. Though it is certain, that this decree of the Almighty is infallible, and must have its effect, yet it is far removed from the blasphemy of Calvinists, who pretend that it destroys free-will, and therefore removes all motives of exertion to good works.
  • 2nd. For it is a point of Catholic faith, that this foreknowledge of the Almighty no ways interferes with man’s liberty, but leaves him still a perfectly free agent, and therefore responsible for his actions.
  • 3rd. It is likewise decreed by the Council of Trent, that no one can certainly know that he is of the number of the predestined, without a special revelation to that effect.
These are the most essential points, which it concerns us to know of this doctrine. As to the consequences which may be drawn from these positions, it were better for us to submit our understandings to the obedience of faith, than entangle ourselves in a maze of abstruse errors, far removed from our comprehension. Would that this sober line of conduct were pursued by many moderns, who at present talk and write so much on this subject, and to such little purpose. How excellently well does the great genius of the Latin Church, St. Augustine, say: Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de occultis! How much wiser and better is it to confess our ignorance on mysteries, than idly to dispute on mysteries! (lib. viii. de Gen. ad litt. chap. 5.)​
The reason you cannot get anywhere is that you do not understand why God created the universe. Once you study this in-depth most of your ungrounded challenges will fall to the sidelines.
 

MoreCoffee

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The reason you cannot get anywhere is that you do not understand why God created the universe. Once you study this in-depth most of your ungrounded challenges will fall to the sidelines.
It's all a part of God's ineffable plan :)
 

1689Dave

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That's really not a very kind thing to say on a Christian forum.
The truth is not welcome here? Where does that place you if Calvin was right? How about all the dead believers at the hands of the Catholics and other reformational churches? Simply for disagreeing with them? Do the Anabaptists ring a bell?
 

MoreCoffee

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Stupidity is a virtue?
I leave it to you to teach on that matter, one who has not experienced it is better not to expound on it in the presence of an expert.
 

1689Dave

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I leave it to you to teach on that matter, one who has not experienced it is better not to expound on it in the presence of an expert.
I have more bible study than most.
 

MoreCoffee

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I have more bible study than most.
The words of the wise are like a goad, and like nails deeply fastened, which, through the counsel of teachers, are set forth by one pastor. You should require no more than this, my son. For there is no end to the making of many books. And excessive study is an affliction to the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:11-12
 

1689Dave

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The words of the wise are like a goad, and like nails deeply fastened, which, through the counsel of teachers, are set forth by one pastor. You should require no more than this, my son. For there is no end to the making of many books. And excessive study is an affliction to the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:11-12
We are to study to make ourselves approved. Just doing my part.
 

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