Justification

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Andrew

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We are all saved by divine intervention. There is no other way.
We are called to be ambassadors of reconciliation to the world.
The good news is precisely that God intervenes and atones for sinners.
I agree with you there. I was saved by divine intervention and like Paul I knew it was Christ and not Shiva or Buddha... Paul was a Jew so he like all the other apostles and even Jesus knew the OT, the difference being that I have the NT covenant along with the OT to direct me as to what God I serve.
Without the gospel I have no word of God, you know this and you know that heaven and earth may pass but Gods word is forever.
How else will I know about Christ sacrifice on the cross?

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Arsenios

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Shall I thank God for false teaching, or should I be like Paul and call it anathema?
Paul addressed the Judaisers and their adding of the law in an attempt to be justified before God. He called for God to curse their teaching. Shall I not do the same?

Ask God - I just thank God for you being here...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Shall I thank God for false teaching

Did God permit it?

or should I be like Paul and call it anathema?

You are not like Paul...

Paul addressed the Judaisers

The fore-skinners!

and their adding of the law

Ah yes! The Law of Moses, under which Christ was born, and out of which came Christianity...

Do you really think they ADDED the Law of Moses?

in an attempt to be justified before God.

God corrects, not your criticisms...

And He did correct, at the first Council at Jerusalem, remember?

Iakovos made it official - Peter won the argument - All concurred...

He called for God to curse their teaching.

And He did...

Shall I not do the same?

You're not Paul, sorry...!


Arsenios
 

ImaginaryDay2

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We are called to be ambassadors of reconciliation to the world.

And you've shown this in the thread... where? Certainly not to those "Judaizers" (read: "Brothers in Christ")
 

Arsenios

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I posted the following on Lammchen's thread explaining a little of Christ's Salvation for man: Justification has its place in this context of man's Salvation in Christ...
__________________________________________________________________
In a way, Christ is the re-set button for us, and not all of us want to be reset...

But more to the OP...

Adam failed and we are all, including Christ, born in Adam... Adam turned from God and ate of the tree and died to the Life he had enjoyed in Paradise, and 900+ years later himself died... The Plan of God is to make Adam after he matured to become united with Christ, and for this Christ would incarnate after a certain period of time, and unite Adam to Himself...

And this is exactly what He did, on schedule, without wavering...

The problem with Adam - We are all Adam here - is that Death entered creation through his sin, and we are all born into that death, and Christ is the Giver of Life, as is God the Father and the Holy Spirit God... In God is no darkness at all, and Death is darkness...

Had Adam not sinned, there would be no death on earth, and Christ's coming to earth would have Him Divinizing Adam and His descendants without suffering the Cross for us... But as Scripture records, Christ is our SECOND Adam... So in His wanton Love for mankind, He incarnated into Adam's death-laden flesh, and was Crucified, that He should enter into Hades and overcome the Power of Death in His Own fallen yet sinless flesh... He entered into Death to defeat the Enemy of mankind, which is death, and in this He utterly succeeded, and this because though He entered Hades as a corpse, He was not only without sin, but was also God, and Hades had no power to resist Him there, and he plundered the Gates of Hades... And when He then took up His Life again and arose on the third day, He transformed Human Nature in His Own Flesh - And ONLY in His Own flesh - And this is why we are baptized INTO Christ, that we should overcome sin in our own flesh, having been reborn into Christ and having received the Seal of the Holy Spirit in our Annointing at Baptism, and thereby having become a New Creation... And this is why we who are now members of the Ekklesial Body of our Lord on earth are indeed ABLE to be perfected in our Walk in the Way, Who is Christ...

But that walk presumes our being united with and in Christ and our having the Holy Spirit descend and abide in us as a new Hypostasis conjoined with God... And this is Salvation... the conjoining of God and man, which IS a new creation in Christ... This entry into Christ IS our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, and it can ONLY be given to us BY Christ, which He gives through the hands of His Servants who as members of this Theanthropic Body actually do baptize those who have been repenting into Christ...

What did Christ's Death on the Cross give man? It gave him union with God at his core, even the very hypostatic center of his very person...

And this is what the OT Saints, who were more Holy than most of us, did NOT have... They became saturated in the Holy Spirit and could bring forth water out of rocks, but they themselves did not have the hypostatic union with God that Baptism gives in the rebirth of the penitent into Christ's Holy Body, Whose Head He is, and Whose Kingdom Christ Himself is...
_____________________________________________________

Justification is the making righteous of man by God IN Christ...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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All decided by you? Then God is not God as you've decided what his sovereign and ordained plan is, and walk in that in opposition to anything else that he may choose to show you. If one takes in and filters out what one decides on his own, then Jesus is not the Savior indeed

It's not decided by me. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by God and God alone, without help from us.
I have no idea what you are adding to this.
 

MennoSota

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I agree with you there. I was saved by divine intervention and like Paul I knew it was Christ and not Shiva or Buddha... Paul was a Jew so he like all the other apostles and even Jesus knew the OT, the difference being that I have the NT covenant along with the OT to direct me as to what God I serve.
Without the gospel I have no word of God, you know this and you know that heaven and earth may pass but Gods word is forever.
How else will I know about Christ sacrifice on the cross?

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How did the early church know, before the canon was formed? God can intervene in any way he so chooses.
 

MennoSota

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Did God permit it?



You are not like Paul...



The fore-skinners!



Ah yes! The Law of Moses, under which Christ was born, and out of which came Christianity...

Do you really think they ADDED the Law of Moses?



God corrects, not your criticisms...

And He did correct, at the first Council at Jerusalem, remember?

Iakovos made it official - Peter won the argument - All concurred...



And He did...



You're not Paul, sorry...!


Arsenios
I am a child of God, just like Paul. We can ask our Father the same things. Paul was a sinner, graciously adopted by God, just like I am. We are brothers. There is nothing more special about Paul or any of the Apostles. They are brothers in the faith. God gave them their task as he gives me my task. Please don't act as though they live on a higher spiritual plain. I thank God for having Paul write about the false teachers who tried to corrupt the gospel by adding works. It becomes easy to identify the same false teaching today.
 

Andrew

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How did the early church know, before the canon was formed? God can intervene in any way he so chooses.
Word of mouth as God commanded

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popsthebuilder

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I have never met anyone self proclaimed Christian that believed or said anything near what you stated here.
It isn't about denominational culture at all. It's about giving credit to the one who truly deserves it...and guess what? Man does not deserve credit for his salvation/justification/atonement/forgiveness...the list goes on and on. But man keeps wanting to try to impose himself on God to make himself into a god for himself thinking that God could never do it without his assistance. Adam wanted to be a god and so it continues with man thinking they don't need God for life.

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Josiah

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Having been given the gift of faith (work wholly of God - 100%) - one must "come to their senses" (100% - what "they" do).... there is no denial of where the gift of faith comes from and originates. Thanks.


Ding, ding. We have a winner.
:hiphiphooray:


AMEN! Having been GIVEN the GIFT of faith (totally, completely HIS work and Gift), then you repent. Indeed a lifetime of constant repentance. And love. And obedience. AMEN!



A blessed Pentecost to all...


- Josiah




.
 
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Josiah

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Imo, I think who's "rendering Jesus a bad joke" are ones who aren't adequately understanding that no-one has said that the dead can save themselves.


Actually, some do. Luther heard them A LOT (some were even his pastors as a young man). I have heard them a lot (some were my pastors, deacons, teachers). Luther had quite a lot of "discussions" with them.

There ARE those saying that the Dead must FIRST repent BEFORE God does anything. But you got it right, you stand boldly with Luther and Lutherans (no surprise). FIRST God GIVES us life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification..... THEN much (very much) comes into the picture, INCLUDING repentance. Yup. I could not agree with your very Protestant post more (thank you).... reps coming your way). For Protestants generally, it's true (and it's CRITICAL to uphold) that having been given the gift of faith (work wholly of God - 100%) (justification) - one must "come to their senses" .... there is no denial of where the gift of faith comes from and originates. Thanks. But then, of course, there is (and never has been) any significant difference of opinion about what happens once there is faith/life/Holy Spirit, the enormous debate (the whole issue of the Reformation, the whole point the RCC split itself over) is the ATTAINING of that life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (no real debate about the "then...." part, Sanctification). No one has EVER remotely denied the extreme importance of repentance... or that it is OUR work (motivated by the Holy Spirit).... NO ONE has EVER remotely denied that repentance (among other things) accompanies Justification (indeed, many Lutherans would argue that generally if there is no repentance, there is no justification). The debate is over the changed relationship with God, what you said is 100% the work of God (you taking the Lutheran stance). That the RCC denounced, repudiated, anathematized, split itself over.... the issue is Justification (narrow) which is why the RCC has always (for over 500 years) been UBER careful to note that our dispute is over Justification, NOT Sanctification (narrow). As we talk about repentance, humility, love, service, ministry, morality, etc. - we're all pretty much on the same page (well, at least Lutherans, Anglicans and Catholics - and probably Orthodox).



A blessed Pentecost to you and yours....


- Josiah



.
 
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Andrew

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Actually, some do. There ARE those saying that the Dead must FIRST repent BEFORE God does anything. But you got it right, you stand boldly with Luther and Lutherans (no surprise). FIRST God GIVES us life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification..... THEN much (very much) comes into the picture, INCLUDING repentance. Yup. I could not agree with your very Protestant post more (thank you).... reps coming your way). For Protestants generally, it's true (and it's CRITICAL to uphold)


A blessed Pentecost to you and yours....


- Josiah

I can agree with this. God manifested himself to me long before I repented, why would I repent before an unknown God had he not justified me in the first place?
 

Albion

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The only choice a person makes is to rebel continuously.
Romans 3:10-18
[10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— *** not even one.
[11]No one is truly wise; *** no one is seeking God.
[12]All have turned away; *** all have become useless. No one does good, *** not a single one.”
[13]“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. *** Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” ***
[14]“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
[15]“They rush to commit murder. ***
[16]Destruction and misery always follow them.
[17]They don’t know where to find peace.” ***
[18]“They have no fear of God at all.”

You've still confused two different theological concepts.
 

MennoSota

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Albion

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Andrew

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I am a child of God, just like Paul. We can ask our Father the same things. Paul was a sinner, graciously adopted by God, just like I am. We are brothers. There is nothing more special about Paul or any of the Apostles. They are brothers in the faith. God gave them their task as he gives me my task. Please don't act as though they live on a higher spiritual plain. I thank God for having Paul write about the false teachers who tried to corrupt the gospel by adding works. It becomes easy to identify the same false teaching today.
Glad to hear we are in the same boat Menno

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MennoSota

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Neither does anyone else around here, Menno.
Great. So humans are corrupted.
I will say that their corruption is similar to cancer. No matter how hard we work to get healthy, we still have the cancer in us. We cannot get rid of this cancer. No matter what we try to do, it is impossible for us. This is why Paul cries out in Romans 7, "Who will deliver me from this body of sin?"
What is Paul's answer? If it isn't our efforts, what is it?
Now, there are people at the CH who insist that they must work to deliver themselves from their body of sin. Therefore, I suggest that your claim is not accurate. There are some around here, despite your claim to the contrary.
 

MoreCoffee

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When God created Adam's body from the dust of the ground it was 100% God's work of creation, and when God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils it was 100% God's work of vilification, and when Adam started breathing it was 100% Adam's response to God's creation and God's gift of life. God is good. He is always the giver. He gives all things and he gives life and those to whom God gives life live it 100% themselves as his gift. A man is justified by works and not by faith alone and a man is saved by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God created in advance for him to do as his way of life. God is good. God is glorified by his creation. The angels praise his goodness and name and his faithful people do the same - perhaps not as beautifully but they do it all the same. Each according to his ability.
 
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