What do we tell unsaved about biblical election?

[Broadway]

@Broadway


I think they do. Try reading them:

For example....

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Not self has caused self.

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

I have already explained most of these. Typical texts that Calvinist use to show predestination of individual believers when none of them actually do. None of your explanations existed prior to Calvin. Since my Church has declared Calvinism heretical, as the Church has never held the view of predestination as a doctrine. It cropped up by a couple of individuals but was never a teaching of the Church.

Then there is the Nicene Creed which of course the Orthodox accept, which specifically states that the Holy Spirit is the giver of life (spiritual life)... it does NOT state that actually the Holy Spirit gives nothing and has nothing to do with spiritual life, faith and salvation but rather credit and praise the DEAD, fallen, godless, atheistic enemy of God who create and then gave all this to self.

The Nicene Creed was written by the Church, understood by the Church and that word, LIFE has never meant spiritual life. You should do a study on the Nicene Creed outside of some Protestant influences. Maybe that is your confusion in scripture. You have been misled by some errant protestant theologians. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit gave life to Christ, raised Him from the grave, thus giving all human beings life. That is Incarnational, a topic you need to study as well.

 

[Josiah]

Typical texts that Calvinist use to show predestination of individual believers when none of them actually do.

These Scriptures (and more) present the Doctrine of Election/Predestination. They ARE the doctrine:

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed" "Before the foundation of the world."

Note: "GAVE" God GAVE.



@Broadway

We note that you've not offered any Scripture that states that actually God does not give or do anything to cause the DEAD to have spiritual life, faith, and salvation but rather, to the contrary, each DEAD, unbelieving, godless, fallen, atheistic, enemy of God creates and then gives to himself spiritual life, faith and salvation. No verses that state that. You offered not one Scripture that states that. NOTHING that states that every dead, godless, fallen man just freely CHOOSES (with God passively standing by) whether to give self spiritual life, faith and salvation to himself - or not.

I've stated the doctrine of predestination by only quoting Scripture, verbatim. You've offered NOTHING to support your view that each dead unbeliever creates and gives to himself spiritual life, faith and salvation - or not - simply because that's what that lifeless, godless, dead individual freely chooses to do.



.

 

[Broadway]

That again is a non-sequitur. All men being drawn to Christ does not mean that all who are drawn will become and remain disciples. For that, it takes saving Faith.

The Holy Spirit does not give "saving faith". He gives faith to all men and it is up to man to do with it as he chooses. He can denounce it, or hecan believe, repent, by baptized and then live a life of faithfulness., thus being a saving faith. However, he can reject Christ at any time in his lifetime, lose faith, maybe many times.

He is referencing those whom the Father gave him out of all of mankind. Had there been no such selection process on the part of the Father, every person would automatically be saved, thanks to the Crucifixion and Resurrection. The Bible certainly does not teach this, and it's quite obvious that it doe

No, God gave all things, in heaven and on earth to Christ. Christ needed to same mankind and the world first. If He does not, then the world remains under the condemnation of Adam, namely death and sin. Heb 2:14-17 makes this clear.
Here is another of mankind being saved by Christ death and resurrection. Eph2:1 The phrase, He made us alive is referencing the Incarnatin, death and resurrection of Christ in giving life to the world. This emphasized by Paul again in vs 5 when He repeats it, "even when we were dead in treaspasses made us alive TOGETHER WITH CHRIST. (BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED)" What I hear a lot of protestants say is that thnis life is spiritual and since it is past tense, believers have guaranteed salvation.
But, it does not refer to spiritual life but physical life (connection to the Incarnation, death and resurrection from death) and the fact it is past tense is that Christ did this at His resurrection. No place in scripture does it every refer to a living believer has being saved spiritually, past tnese. No believer is saved in this life, They are being saved and that status changes many times for a lot of people. In other words, OSAS is a false teaching of scripture.
I might also ask, why would Christ need to be given spiritual life?

 

[Albion]

The Holy Spirit does not give "saving faith". He gives faith to all men

Hmmm. That's quite a misuse of the term Faith.

No, God gave all things, in heaven and on earth to Christ.

You maybe have forgotten that Christ is God.

Christ needed to same mankind and the world first. If He does not, then the world remains under the condemnation of Adam, namely death and sin. Heb 2:14-17 makes this clear.

Yes, but no one here is denying that.

This emphasized by Paul again in vs 5 when He repeats it, "even when we were dead in treaspasses made us alive TOGETHER WITH CHRIST. (BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED)" What I hear a lot of protestants say is that thnis life is spiritual and since it is past tense, believers have guaranteed salvation.

I guess I can't vouch for what unidentified people might have said or meant or that you are correctly repeating it. In any case, it doesn't decide the question before us.

No believer is saved in this life, They are being saved and that status changes many times for a lot of people. In other words, OSAS is a false teaching of scripture.

I feel that it's quite unfair, or unaware, to imply that the people here whom you have been discussing this with are devotees of OSAS. Some have gone out of their way to point out to you that they are not OSAS and that the issue before us is not OSAS.

 

[Broadway]

These Scriptures (and more) present the Doctrine of Election/Predestination. They ARE the doctrine:

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed" "Before the foundation of the world."

Note: "GAVE" God GAVE.

It is your doctrine of predestination/election not necessarily what the scriptures actually teach. After all, within Protestantism there are many different doctrines.
However, within the historical Church over the last two thousand years this has not ever been a doctrine. It is a theory looking for texts that seemingly might support it, all the while distorting the rest of scripture. Wrong theology does not condemn anyone, but it can lead one astray. Paul warns of false teachers within the Church. Historically all false teaching have come from individuals who were members of the Church. The Church has not been concerned with teaahings outside of the Church unless they begin to draw believers away.

@Broadway

We note that you've not offered any Scripture that states that actually God does not give or do anything to cause the DEAD to have spiritual life, faith, and salvation but rather, to the contrary, each DEAD, unbelieving, godless, fallen, atheistic, enemy of God creates and then gives to himself spiritual life, faith and salvation. No verses that state that. You offered not one Scripture that states that. NOTHING that states that every dead, godless, fallen man just freely CHOOSES (with God passively standing by) whether to give self spiritual life, faith and salvation to himself - or not.

I've stated the doctrine of predestination by only quoting Scripture, verbatim. You've offered NOTHING to support your view that each dead unbeliever creates and gives to himself spiritual life, faith and salvation - or not - simply because that's what that lifeless, godless, dead individual freely chooses to do.

What you say above is a lot of nonsense. You seem to think that I am going to give texts, explanations of texts that support your errant view. I don't have any scriptures that actually give what you think is the opposite of your view. It seems the opposite of your view is not scriptural either.
The Calvinist view distorts who God is, a respector of persons, who actually creates some men in His Image only for the purpose of destroying them. Hardly a God of love. His view of the fall "{total depravity" puts God as the initiator of sin, the reason why the Church declared Augustine's view of original sin heretical.

 

[Josiah]

The Holy Spirit gives faith to all men

Scripture please. The one(s) that state, "God gives faith to all people."

Broadway said:


He gives knowledge to all men as explained in Rom 1:18-24

KNOWLEDGE, not faith. Knowledge is not faith. Knowledge does not save. The devil has knowledge about God and I'm guessing you don't believe that the devil is thus saved.

Where is the verse that states "God gives faith to all men."

Broadway said:


Rom 12:3 a measure of faith is given to all men.

Romans 12:1 specifically states Paul is writing this to CHRISTIANS, not "all men."

And you missed that it says GOD gives this faith, not each DEAD, spiritually lifeless, godless, fallen person creates all this for and in himself - and then gives it to himself (if he wants to - or not). That it's just a matter of man's complete free will (what's God got to do with life or faith or salvation, anyway - each dead person does this for himself).

You seem to think that I am going to give texts, explanations of texts that support your errant view

No. I think you should give Scripture to support YOUR errant view. You've offered none. NONE that state that God gives faith to all men. NONE that state that each dead, godless, fallen, atheistic enemy of God can create spiritual life, faith and salvation and then give it to himself - if he freely chooses to. NONE that state that God does not cause faith, that there is no elect, that God does not predestine some.

Calvin

I'm not Calvin. Take any condemnation of Calvin to Calvin.... take any feelings you might have about hyper-Calvinism to hyper-Calvinists. I've not suggested that Calvin was right about... well... anything (although I think he was right about some things).

Notice that no Calvinists (of any stripe) is engaging with you. None of us in this thread is a Calvinist.



@Broadway
Consider your complete lack of any Scripture that states what you do....

Then consider....


1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed" "Before the foundation of the world." That IS the doctrine of predestination.



.

 

[Albion]

It is your doctrine of predestination/election not necessarily what the scriptures actually teach. After all, within Protestantism there are many different doctrines.

Just as within Catholicism there are many different doctrines. None of this does anything to settle the question about what the correct teaching is.

What you say above is a lot of nonsense. You seem to think that I am going to give texts, explanations of texts that support your errant view.

If you cannot support your POV with the word of God, why should we discuss this matter a moment longer?

I don't have any scriptures that actually give what you think is the opposite of your view.

Okay. Maybe we should just leave it at that, then.

 

[Broadway]

Hmmm. That's quite a misuse of the term Faith.

it is the scriptual view. Christ does not give saving faith in that a believer is free to reject that faith. How can that be saving. To be saved is the responsibility of each believer to grow that seed of faith. The parable of the talents comes to mind.

You maybe have forgotten that Christ is God.

So you don't understand Col 1:16-20 either.

Yes, but no one here is denying that.

Really. My discourse with you, Josiah, and Lees are all denying the very work of the Incarnation the result of His resurrection.

I guess I can't vouch for what unidentified people might have said or meant or that you are correctly repeating it. In any case, it doesn't decide the question before us.

quite the contrary, it is the result of the Incarnation, death and resurrection. The topic most of you don't understand and put all of Christ's work about believers.

I feel that it's quite unfair, or unaware, to imply that the people here whom you have been discussing this with are devotees of OSAS. Some have gone out of their way to point out to you that they are not OSAS and that the issue before us is not OSAS.

My apology if you have been one of them.

 

[Albion]

it is the scriptual view.

You've already explained to us that you cannot refer to any verses from the word of God that substantiate your view.

Christ does not give saving faith in that a believer is free to reject that faith.

How would the ability of a human to reject the Faith prove that God does not give the gift of Faith to certain people?

To be saved is the responsibility of each believer to grow that seed of faith.

Well, the idea of salvation by works is not very Scriptural.

So you don't understand Col 1:16-20 either.

Really. My discourse with you, Josiah, and Lees are all denying the very work of the Incarnation the result of His resurrection.

Not in the least do we deny that! In fact, I think it could be argued that we emphasize its importance more than you do, as you go about suggesting to us that men can save themselves by their own good deeds.

 

[Broadway]

I'm not Calvin. Take any condemnation of Calvin to Calvin.... take any feelings you might have about hyper-Calvinism to hyper-Calvinists. I've not suggested that Calvin was right about... well... anything (although I think he was right about some things).

Notice that no Calvinists (of any stripe) is engaging with you. None of us in this thread is a Calvinist.


1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed" "Before the foundation of the world." That IS the doctrine of predestination.

Amazing, you claim not to be a Calvinist yet you make a huge point of teaching the doctrine of predestination. As far as I know he is the only one that developed the whole theory of Calvinism and election/predestination was central to it.
How do you differ from Calvin's doctrine of election?

 

[Broadway]

You've already explained to us that you cannot refer to any verses from the word of God that substantiate your view.

I've given my view, the Orthodox view, and many, many scriptures. They just don't align with your view.

How would the ability of a human to reject the Faith prove that God does not give the gift of Faith to certain people?

Scripture says He gaves a meassure of faith to all men. So it is man that can accept or reject the call of the Holy Spirit to repentance. But those that believe can fall away as many have, Thus burying the gifts they were given and it cannot be called a saving faith.

Well, the idea of salvation by works is not very Scriptural.

I fully agree. But I don't know where you would have gotten that idea from what I stated anywhere.

Not in the least do we deny that! In fact, I think it could be argued that we emphasize its importance more than you do, as you go about suggesting to us that men can save themselves by their own good deeds. Quite the opposite. We are being saved through faith but faith without works is a dead faith. We need to use the gifts given to us. We need to continue in faithfulness, to be conformed to His Image.

 

[Albion]

I've given my view, the Orthodox view, and many, many scriptures.

Yes, but you've refused, when asked, to cite any verses that substantiate your claims.

What you've said instead is "It's the scriptural view," and then called people Calvinists who are not Calvinists, and also said you believe what you do because of what your denomination teaches.

If that is the way it's going to be here, then the word of God is not to be considered, even though almost every Christian church of any sort affirms the Bible! So we are guided by Scripture, and you are guided by your church's version of Tradition. And that's where this rests.

 

[Josiah]

Amazing, you claim not to be a Calvinist yet you make a huge point of teaching the doctrine of predestination.

@Broadway I gave the doctrine of predestination- never once referencing or quoting Calvin but only and exclusively verbatim Scripture.

How do you differ from Calvin's doctrine of election?

Again, here is the view I support, the view of Predestination:


1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed" "Before the foundation of the world." That IS the doctrine of predestination.

Note: You have yet to provide even one verse that states what you do: That God gives faith to ALL people... that God doesn't give faith to anyone but every DEAD, godless, atheistic, fallen, enemy of God creates in himself spiritual life, faith and salvation and then gives it to himself - or not, as each freely chooses (with zero involvement from God). Scripture most certainly does not state either of your points... which is why you haven't quoted Scripture stating them. It doesn't.

Scripture says He gaves a meassure of faith to all men

No. That is false.

You even offered the reference to prove you are wrong. Romans 12:1-3 says God gives to CHRISTIANS, to "The Brethren," a measure of faith. You proved it does NOT state God gives faith to "all men."



@Broadway

We are struck by how you keep misrepresenting the position of your particular church - the Eastern Orthodox Church - on predestination. As most here know, this is verbatim what your church stated in 1672 at its own Synod of Jerusalem: “We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected." A view a LOT, a LOT closer to Calvin's understanding than is mine (indeed, your church's view is more radical and extreme than Calvin's, who only taught that God "passes over" the unelect, your church says God "consigns" them to hell). Now, it goes on to distance itself from Calvin by saying this DOUBLE Predestination is not without cause, but it's still "Predestination" (a word it uses, not avoids). A view a LOT, MUCH closer to Calvin than my view and the usual Protestant view). My view is precisely, verbatim what Scripture states - nothing more, nothing less. Scripture does nothing of a predestination of those He has rejected (Scripture does not teach DOUBLE predestination) and Scripture says nothing of this being "for cause."




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[Lees]

I agree with scripture but not your interpretation. Because you do not understand the meaning of the Incarnation your view has these monster contradictions. You say that He died for all sinners, yet you don't believe that His death and resurrection saved the world from death and sin. As your idea that believers are not to love unbelievers. Christ commanded us to pray for our enemies. How do you evangelize if you hate the people you are addressing. It is amazing how contorted your theology becomes regarding I John 2:16, You seem to pick and choose verses that are not even in context of the subject to which we are speaking.

So you say, but your theology explicitly denies it. You don't understand the Incarnation. You don't understand that Christ assumed our human nature. a nature that is consubstantial with every other human being including the world because we were created from the dust of the earth. That condemnation of death to man in Gen 3;19 is dust to dust. How can hell exist in your theology, actually even heaven because Christ did not raise our human natures to life. Read I Cor 15:12-22, 53-54. Hell and heaven exist ONLY BECAUSE CHRIST AROSE FROM THE GRAVE AND GAVE LIFE TO THE WORLD.
Your theology states that Christ was not Incarnated thus did not have our human nature, or He had our human nature but never arose from the Grave. Also read, Heb 2:14-17. It tells you Christ took on our human natures. For what purpose. To defeat Satan who has the power over death and sin.

Why would He need to pray for the physical world when, at that point it was already saved. He is praying for Himself in those verses and in the last three for all other people of this world. Why people? Because He saved all people from death and sin and now it is up to man to respond to His call for all men to repent. He desires all men, individual men to be saved. He does not need to pray for mankind, or man here because they have already been saved from death and sin.

in other words the physical world.

So if someone else convinces you to sin, you don't actually sin. It is the other person who sinned.

So you bypass the Incarnation by changing the words, therefore the actual meaning so it might fit your theology. It never says in scripture that Christ assumed our bodies. He assumed our nature.

Let me answer your question again so you might understand this time. All human beings were saved from death, thus all human beings will be raised in the last day immortal and incorruptible.
Now, Those individuals who believed, and were faithful to the end will inherit eternal life. Those that chose to deny Christ will suffer eternal damanation.

No, you don't agree with Scripture. The comparison of (John 3:16) with (John 2:15) shows that you use a false definition of KOSMOS. Scripture is clear. Believers are not to love the world. And if you do love the world, the love of the Father isn't in you. And, you don't believe (Rom. 9:11-13) and (Mal. 1:2-3) as it is equally clear that God doesn't love everybody. All these verses are in the context of what we are discussing.

Again, of course Hell exists. And your constant reference to the Incarnation is lame, as I have never denied it. Hell and heaven existed before the Resurrection. No, the Resurrection pertains to the body. Not our human nature. Christ did have a human nature and at the Resurrection His body rose from the dead.

See, now you refuse to admit your error, and you contradict yourself. You said first that Christ prayed for the world. I showed you in (John 17:9) that Christ plainly says He does not pray for the world. Now you say, Christ didn't need to pray for the world. You don't know the very Scripture you try and use. Worse, you don't believe the Scripture.

Again, as I showed, KOSMOS means 'world order'.

You're not paying attention to what Scripture is saying. (1 Tim. 2:14) Adam was not deceived. He ate knowing what he was doing. He was not seduced by Eve to eat. He was not convinced by Eve to eat.

No, again, I do not bypass the Incarnation. At the Incarnation The Son was given a human nature and body. At the Resurrection His body was raised from the dead and united to both His Divine and human nature. You say Scripture doesn't say Christ assumed a human body. Again, Scripture is against you. (Heb. 10:5) "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared me."

The problem is, I do understand. You're avoiding my questions. Do you believe that we who are believers will throughout all eternity be saved sinners? And does that bother you? Or I should ask, why does that bother you because you prove it does by refusing to answer.

Lees

 

[Hadassah]

Greetings, bbas 64! Bill, the herald of divine comedy in the Calvinistic realm, sharing wisdom wrapped in chuckles. Let's embark on a cosmic comedy cruise through the seas of evangelism, shall we?

"Ahoy, fellow voyagers of the elect! Bill, our comedic Calvinist captain, brings forth the divine jests from the book of God-Centered Evangelism. Picture this cosmic comedy club, where the unsaved get front-row seats to a divine stand-up show.

Bill quotes, 'Election spells salvation by divine grace, human merit is out, and hope shines for the chief of sinners!' Now, that's a comedy plot twist even Hollywood couldn't script. God's divine invitation, with a sprinkle of predestination responsibility – it's like the ultimate divine sitcom.

And lo, the Calvinistic punchline: 'Faith is the fruit and proof of election, making one as sure of being elect as being a believer!' Talk about a divine two-for-one deal. As we sail through the eternal foundation of the cosmic comedy house, where hell's assault is no match for the ticket to everlasting life.

But wait, there's more wisdom from J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God: 'God's sovereignty in grace is our only hope in evangelism – making us bold, patient, and prayerful.' It's the divine comedy script that turns evangelists into celestial comedians, armed with grace and punchlines.

So, Bill, our cosmic Calvinistic comedian, keep spreading the divine laughter and gospel joy. After all, nothing beats a good laugh on the eternal comedy stage of God's sovereign grace!"

Any celestial queries or comedic wonders, Bill?

I enjoyed your little sitcom in linguistic artistry. You write well. A little snarky and swift footed. I'm new here, this really was quite enjoyable regardless of leanings. A very engaging thread and responses.

 

[Hadassah]

I agree with Josiah relevant to the command for all believers to teach, preach and evangelize the world.
However, as to point of theology scripture and historical record does not support the theory of what Calvinist call election. There are too many examples in scripture of believers who failed to remain faithful. After all, man has free will. God does not decide who believes and who does not. He calls all men to repentance, Acts 17:30, II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4-8, Rom1:18-21.
God could not be just if He forordained anyone to eternal damnation. He saved all men from the condemnation of death and sin just so man could again freely choose Him Simply put, Christ reversed the fall of Adam thus giving man the privilege to have a personal relationship with God, the same as Adam who by his own free will chose death.

If I may, doesn't St. Paul speak upon the predestined/ elect issue concerning those set aside or called out as firstfruits? It's kinda like, if God didn't predestine or pre- make an elect group He would have none. Not that they know before God lets them know that He predestined them, but once they become aware, it is guaranteed they will not fail.

I think the predestined/elect are firstfruits endowed with the attributes of God to be teachers. Not all Christians are firstfruits. Firstfruits are those who are part of the first resurrection. That's just my opinion but well, there you have it.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~
Re: What do we tell unsaved about biblical election?

I suggest beginning your packaged spiel by telling them that God is the ultimate
crystal ball; viz: He's seen the future and has always known well in advance who
would and/or who wouldn't buy into the emancipation from retribution He's offering
via the cross.

Having all the necessary data in His head needed for compiling an inventory, God
drew it up and exercised His executive privilege to register everyone on it for the
benefit described by Eph 1:3-5.

So then, if an unsaved person's name isn't already on the list before you even walk
up to speak with them about biblical election, it will never be on the list, and their
afterlife destination is set in concrete because the Lamb's book of life was completed
early-on, i.e. prior to the cosmos' existence.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.
( Roll Call, James M. Black, 1893 )

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Rev 20:15)

Submitted for moderator approval 02/22/2024 @ 08:56 am Pacific Time
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