The gods behind abortion

[Josiah]

The Bible never mentions abortion so I wonder why so many Christians act as if it did.

How silly.....


The Bible never mentions bombs or guns either, so evidently you think it's perfectly OK to kill someone with a bomb or a gun since those methods aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible. According to you, what happened to the Twin Trade Towers on 9/11 was perfectly moral and wonderful because the Bible never mentions airplanes. How silly.


See post 135, you entirely ignored it .....








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[kiwimac]

How silly.....


The Bible never mentions bombs or guns either, so evidently you think it's perfectly OK to kill someone with a bomb or a gun since those methods aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible. According to you, what happened to the Twin Trade Towers on 9/11 was perfectly moral and wonderful because the Bible never mentions airplanes. How silly.


See post 135, you entirely ignored it .....








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Your comment may well be close to the dictionary definition of idiocy.

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[kiwimac]

Some who defend intentionally killing innocent child quote Exodus 21 verse 22: "If two men are fighting with each other and they happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that the unborn child dies, then if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman's husband and confirmed by judges."


Note, that the harm to be unborn child was UNINTENTIONAL. The definition of the Hebrew word for "murder" (as in the Commandment, Thou shalt not murder") is "to intentionally kill a human." In this case, two men are fighting... and unintentionally, a woman with child is harmed. And yes, here only a payment is required (SO IT IS WRONG!!!!). It's not murder because it was not intentional. It CAN happen that something happens to a mother so that she looses the baby, but that's not what we're talking about with abortion, abortion is the INTENTIONAL killing of her baby.

And don't miss by this single verse you bring up: IT"S STILL BAD. IT'S STILL WRONG. Even if entirely unintentional and thus not murder per se.

The verse does NOT say, "If a man intentionally causes the death of the baby in a woman, he is to be paid for this act and it is to be defended, promoted, supported and tax payers should pay the man for causing this death."





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The Bible (and Jewish law) never mentions harm to a foetus because a foetus was not considered fully human.

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[Josiah]

The Bible (and Jewish law) never mentions harm to a foetus

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It also never mentions harm to Blacks .... so according to you, it's perfectly moral and okay to murder a Black person because the Hebrew Scriptures never mention Black people. Now silly. How disgusting.


You are not only fine with killing people with bombs and guns because the Bible doesn't mention those methods of killing, but you are fine killing Blacks because the Bible never specifically mentions that race.


See post 135.




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[kiwimac]

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It also never mentions harm to Blacks .... so according to you, it's perfectly moral and okay to murder a Black person because the Hebrew Scriptures never mention Black people. Now silly. How disgusting.


You are not only fine with killing people with bombs and guns because the Bible doesn't mention those methods of killing, but you are fine killing Blacks because the Bible never specifically mentions that race.


See post 135.




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More idiocy.

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[Josiah]

More idiocy

That's my evaluation of your arguments.

Your nonsense that killing with guns and bombs and planes is perfectly okay and wonderfully moral because the Bible doesn't specifically mention those MEANS... your nonsense that it's okay to kill Black people because the Bible never specifically mention Black people as being wrong to kill. Nonsense. Absurdity. Just pure silliness.



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[kiwimac]

That's my evaluation of your arguments.

Your nonsense that killing with guns and bombs and planes is perfectly okay and wonderfully moral because the Bible doesn't specifically mention those MEANS... your nonsense that it's okay to kill Black people because the Bible never specifically mention Black people as being wrong to kill. Nonsense. Absurdity. Just pure silliness.



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Don't quote your words as if I had said them. The Bible never mentions abortion simply because the foetus is not considered human. As a further example, Jewish law is quite content to execute a pregnant woman because the foetus has no right to life prior to birth.

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[Josiah]

The Bible never mentions abortion

It also doesn't mention killing via guns or bombs or drugs or jet airplanes being crashed into buildings. But I disagree with you that therefore it's moral, good and right to kill the innocent and defenseless via those means. I think that's silly.

Jewish law is quite content to execute a pregnant woman

Quote the verse that states that innocent, defenseless pregnant women may be executed. I have a hunch there is no verse that states that, that you just made that up.


See post 135




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[Lamb]

Don't quote your words as if I had said them. The Bible never mentions abortion simply because the foetus is not considered human. As a further example, Jewish law is quite content to execute a pregnant woman because the foetus has no right to life prior to birth.

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Jesus was considered human when He was in Mary's womb.

 

[kiwimac]

Jesus was considered human when He was in Mary's womb.

Two quite different things. An individual might well consider a foetus alive but the law did not consider foetuses human until birth.

 

[kiwimac]

It also doesn't mention killing via guns or bombs or drugs or jet airplanes being crashed into buildings. But I disagree with you that therefore it's moral, good and right to kill the innocent and defenseless via those means. I think that's silly.






Quote the verse that states that innocent, defenseless pregnant women may be executed. I have a hunch there is no verse that states that, that you just made that up.


See post 135




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Where did I say "innocent, defenseless pregnant women...?" However for your education.

". . .Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy, dependent fully on her for its life — a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies. . .

Further:

" . . . The later rabbinic sources address the issue more directly, beginning with the Mishnah referenced above. Elsewhere, the Mishnah says that if a pregnant woman is sentenced to death, the execution can go forward provided she has not yet gone into labor, a further indication that Jewish law does not accord the fetus full human rights prior to birth. . . "

Source

 

[Lamb]

Two quite different things. An individual might well consider a foetus alive but the law did not consider foetuses human until birth.

Jesus was "man" while in the womb. Not just considered alive.

 

[kiwimac]

Jesus was "man" while in the womb. Not just considered alive.

I disagree.

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[Josiah]

the law did not consider foetuses human until birth.

WHAT Law? I keep asking for this reference and you keep showing your inability to provide it.

You seemed to imply that God's Law states, "A human doesn't exist until the last cell of her toe exits the birth canal and then suddenly, pow, we have a human." But you have yet to quote that law.

Now, you MAY find some human law that says that. But then there are human laws that say a Black is only 2/3's of a person, laws that say women must wear a vail and can't drive without a male relative in the car, that Jews cannot own businesses, etc. I disagree with you that just because some HUMAN law says something (like a White man can own a slave) ERGO it is moral, good, righteous and divinely approved. I think that's just silly.

Jewish law is quite content to execute a pregnant woman because the foetus has no right to life prior to birth.

I'm still waiting for the biblical reference for the verse that states, "Thou canst execute a pregnant woman because the 'foetus' has no right to life prior to birth." I can't find that verse. Maybe you keep refusing to give the reference because you can't either?

the Bible never mentions abortion

Again.... yet again.... I disagree with your ABSURD premise that if a specific means of murder isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, therefore murder is okay IF that method is used, this silly idea of yours that it's okay to kill using a gun or bomb or some lethal drug or by crashing jet airplanes into buildings because the Bible never specifically mentions guns or bombs or airplanes. Your whole premise is just, well, silly.



- Josiah




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[Lamb]

I disagree.

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The problem with insisting Jesus was not "man" while in the womb forces His 2 natures to separate and scripture calls Him Son of God while in the womb so we know that He did NOT have the separation of His two natures at that point.

Hebrews 10:5 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.” Since Christ had a body in the womb, He also was not only God in the womb but also human in the womb. Not just a clump of cells.

Luke 1:35 “that which is begotten or conceived, is holy, he shall be called the Son of God.” There it is that in conception He is Son of God.

 

[Bluezone777]

I looked through all of Kiwi's posts and have not found one that contained a scripture in support of his belief. In fact, the first post makes the statement that the bible never mentions abortion and the second points to his degrees on the subject which is a way of pointing to man as its own authority. I would really like to know on what authority do you declare abortion justified before God. Simply, the absence of anything on the matter does not mean it was declared justified before God so a chapter(s) and verse(s) is required.

I would say Luke 10:25-37 is enough for me to know that abortion is wrong and not justified before God. If anything, I'd say Kiwi is doing a fine job of playing the role of the expert in the law who approached Jesus on this matter as shown in the passage especially the part where the expert in the law asks who his neighbor is which could be made into a question of what makes someone a person.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

This is an incendiary topic in itself and especially in a Christian community.
To clarify one point, Moloch was not the god of the aborted. Moloch was a Canaanite god to whom pagan Canaanite's sacrificed born children! Either by the means of giving unto the mechanical idol that was filled with fire in the bronze body of the idol, so as to receive the living sacrifices. Or, sacrifices dedicated to Moloch through war.

Abortion is referred to in the Old Testament. Exodus 21: 22~23 (YLT) refers to what today would be miscarriage (Hebrew: nefel ), which is also known as the body's act of spontaneous abortion.
Also Job chapter 10 and particularly verse 9, but read in context.
Then there is the Law of Jealousy passage in Numbers 5:27~28, referring to the emmenagogue water there.

 

[FredVB]

Where did I say "innocent, defenseless pregnant women...?" However for your education.

. . .Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy, dependent fully on her for its life — a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies. . .

Source

Interesting but I and others do not conclude meaning of God's word which is the Bible from the Talmud, which is something else. If one is open, and a few are, it can be seen that God, the Creator, cares for every creature. As humans will justify killing some they then can justify killing others. It is not a godly direction though. The commandment you shall not kill is a good indication of the direction for godliness.

The problem with insisting Jesus was not "man" while in the womb forces His 2 natures to separate and scripture calls Him Son of God while in the womb so we know that He did NOT have the separation of His two natures at that point.

Hebrews 10:5 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.” Since Christ had a body in the womb, He also was not only God in the womb but also human in the womb. Not just a clump of cells.

Luke 1:35 “that which is begotten or conceived, is holy, he shall be called the Son of God.” There it is that in conception He is Son of God.

That Jesus would be called the Son of God, shown there, indicates that being called Son of God refers to him as the incarnation of God, as Logos the Word with God who is God.

It is not just him indicated being human in that passage, the unborn child who would be called John was shown being a person then too.

 

[soul.]

Nope. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. No 'foetus has full human rights or status prior to birth. Thus not murder.

Jesus said the soul is what makes one human and that God the Father infuses the soul at the moment of conception (The Poem of the Man-God). Furthermore, our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and not our own (1 Cor. 6:19). To kill a human within a temple of the Holy Spirit is desecration and disobeying our Father's following commandments: "Thou shalt not kill" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[pinacled]

The Bible never mentions abortion at all.

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Incorrect
Specifically in shemot 21 it's a penalty of death to kill an unborn child

What Does the Bible Say About Killing Of Unborn Child?

Bible verses about Killing Of Unborn Child

www.openbible.info