RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

Particular

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Why would it be a debate? God's word is clear. Jesus died once and for all!
Then all are redeemed, saved and eternally found in Christ. His atonement effectually paid for everyone.

Unless. Unless the context of scripture is that the writer is addressing the believers and he is saying that Jesus died for all who believe. All ya all that I'm writing to in this letter...y'all, Jesus died once for y'all.

But, hey, let's be lazy and ignore the context of the Bible. We can just pluck sentences from anywhere and just declare their meaning as our hearts desire.
 

Particular

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You're a Calvinist then?
I am a Biblical Christian who rightly divides the Word of God. I care about context and the whole of scripture. I don't misuse verses to create a doctrine from a sentence. Specifically, I am a Particular Baptist.
 

Particular

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Agreed. How does that substantiate the invention in the 16th Century of a few radical Calvinists that Jesus died only for a few and not for all? You are just trying to change the subject to whether Christ DIED for all to whether the Spirit gives FAITH to all. Nice diversion attempt but that's all it is.






Agreed. How does that substantiate the invention in the 16th Century of a few radical Calvinists that Jesus died only for a few and not for all?







Obviously not, since I do NOT hold that all for whom Christ died are personally justified R're EGARDLESS of whether they have faith, I'm NOT the one twisting John 3:16 to say, "For God so loved a tiny unknowable few that He gave ONLY to them His only begotten son and thus those few are saved whether they are Satanists, Atheists, Muslims or worshipers of Porsches." I'm holding to SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE.


So far, you have not quoted a single verse that I have not fully agreed with, but you keep "spinning" the MANY verses I share inside out and upside down until they "mean" the exact opposite of what they undeniably, clearly, boldly, verbatim state. Meanwhile, your whole dogma of ONLY, Christ died for ONLY some... you can't find ANY verse that remotely states that. We're waiting the Scripture (you know, words on a page) that states, "No, Jesus did NOT die for all, Jesus died for ONLY some people."




1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


.... and many, many more that state the same reality.


Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for a few."





.
You agree, yet you deny it all by being a universalist. Or you call Jesus weak because his blood was wasted on the ground and human rebellion prevailed over his atonement for them.
Josiah, you have a gaping hole in your theology and you don't care.
Here's what your solution is:
Observe the hole, then claim "mystery" and walk away with your sola lutherana in tact.
 

Lazy Suesun

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I am a Biblical Christian who rightly divides the Word of God. I care about context and the whole of scripture. I don't misuse verses to create a doctrine from a sentence. Specifically, I am a Particular Baptist.
Then that should mean that you accept Jesus , Emmanuel (God with us) died once and for all. Salvation for all was achieved when the grace of God's revelation of the Good News was preached by Jesus and accomplished when he died on the cross.
Holding faith in that sacrifice is what brings that faith filled one into the new covenant. Immersion Baptism, a rite like unto the Jews Mitzvah, symbolically washes that worldly sinner clean of their citizenship , if you will, in the world, and as they rise from the waters they are re-born, as they were first born from the water of their mothers womb, as a new creation in Christ. The sinner dead in their worldly sins remains submerged, drowned, cast off, washed away. While the new faith filled reborn creation arises sinless, the blood of the lamb covering any wrongs they do, because they are eternally in the hand of Jesus. Because the free gift of Salvation is irrevocable.

All in proper context as to the words of God/teachings of Emmanuel the Christ.
I am a Christian.

(Got questions video below)

For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)
 

Particular

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I think at this stage a matter of clarity should be interjected. Firstly, if one is led to believe Jesus died only for the elect, or those he predetermined would be saved from their sins, and this before he created anything at all, then the teachings of the Apostle peter in 2 Peter 3:9 is a falsehood.

Further, it would mean that God also predestined , predetermined, people would be born for the express purpose of going to Hell according to his pre-planning. That also does not comport with 2 Peter 3:9 nor does it comport with John 3:16, which is sustained by Romans 5 and 10.
Imagine an omniscient power that predestines people to go to heaven or hell before people are created.
This means that all that pertains to salvation and damnation were also predetermined by that same creator. Which means Satan, Sin, the fall.

That then refutes what God says of himself in John 4:16.

The simple truth of God as Christ should suffice. I think we err when we follow men and their interpretation through amalgamation of scripture by their own design, and then identify with a particular man orchestrated denomination.
We leave the truth of God as Christ and enter into man made functions in the name of Christ.

What denomination was Jesus?
Exactly.

Lazy, look at all of 2 Peter and the ending of chapter 2, then the beginning of chapter 3. If you actually attempt to see the context and what Peter is actually writing about, you will see how poorly you grasp verse 9. Will you actually do that.
Second, do you just close your eyes and throw out Romans8 and 9? It is the only plausible explanation for turning your back on election. Do you ignore John 6, 10, and 17? What about Galatians 3 and 4 or the letters to the Thessalonians? The Bible is so full of God's Sovereign choice that a person has to actually not read the Bible in order to avoid it.

So, please I beg both you and Josiah to open up the Bible and read the gospels and epistles from first chapter to last so you see the whole. It will change your view of God.
 

Particular

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@BILL;

This is 9 minutes long ....and there's stuff here only partly relevant to THIS specific discussion, but I think it may help you understand the other position to Calvin's invention. Do check it out:

Perhaps THEN my "corvette" illustration will make sense....


Then if you are up for it (and it's 16 minutes long!) consider this:






.
Josiah, the invention is your doctrine coming straight from sola lutherana.
 

Lazy Suesun

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Lazy, look at all of 2 Peter and the ending of chapter 2, then the beginning of chapter 3. If you actually attempt to see the context and what Peter is actually writing about, you will see how poorly you grasp verse 9. Will you actually do that.
Second, do you just close your eyes and throw out Romans8 and 9? It is the only plausible explanation for turning your back on election. Do you ignore John 6, 10, and 17? What about Galatians 3 and 4 or the letters to the Thessalonians? The Bible is so full of God's Sovereign choice that a person has to actually not read the Bible in order to avoid it.

So, please I beg both you and Josiah to open up the Bible and read the gospels and epistles from first chapter to last so you see the whole. It will change your view of God.
If you hope that I accept that God predestined before creating the world whom would be saved from sin, it would be I who hopes you find the truth of God in Christ. And renounce a doctrine of man that makes God out to be a sadist puppeteer. Think about what the doctrine of predestined elect is telling you about God first.

Omniscient God.
 

Particular

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Then that should mean that you accept Jesus , Emmanuel (God with us) died once and for all. Salvation for all was achieved when the grace of God's revelation of the Good News was preached by Jesus and accomplished when he died on the cross.
Holding faith in that sacrifice is what brings that faith filled one into the new covenant. Immersion Baptism, a rite like unto the Jews Mitzvah, symbolically washes that worldly sinner clean of their citizenship , if you will, in the world, and as they rise from the waters they are re-born, as they were first born from the water of their mothers womb, as a new creation in Christ. The sinner dead in their worldly sins remains submerged, drowned, cast off, washed away. While the new faith filled reborn creation arises sinless, the blood of the lamb covering any wrongs they do, because they are eternally in the hand of Jesus. Because the free gift of Salvation is irrevocable.

All in proper context as to the words of God/teachings of Emmanuel the Christ.
I am a Christian.

(Got questions video below)

For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)
I accept all of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you believe the Son, you will accept what he tells you in John 6, 10 and 17.
 

Lazy Suesun

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Josiah, the invention is your doctrine coming straight from sola lutherana.
Well that would be the trouble with following doctrines sired by men, wouldn't it? Putting a founders name first before the teachings of God in Christ. And that founder having interpreted Jesus' teachings to that end.

Catholicism – (1,200,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Protestantism – (792,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Eastern Orthodoxy – (230,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Oriental Orthodox Church – (82,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Anglicanism – (85,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Nontrinitarianism – (36,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Nestorianism – (600,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
 

Lazy Suesun

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I accept all of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you believe the Son, you will accept what he tells you in John 6, 10 and 17.
I accept God is what he tells me in his own words. God is holy spirit. And Emmanuel was God.

Hear oh Israel our God , our God is one.https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

There is one God and beside him there is no savior. https://biblehub.com/isaiah/43-11.htm

When God knew you before the womb why do you worry about pleasing Omniscient Omnipotent Omnipresence?
 

Particular

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If you hope that I accept that God predestined before creating the world whom would be saved from sin, it would be I who hopes you find the truth of God in Christ. And renounce a doctrine of man that makes God out to be a sadist puppeteer. Think about what the doctrine of predestined elect is telling you about God first.

Omniscient God.
I accept what God tells me.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [/b]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[/b]—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
 

Particular

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Well that would be the trouble with following doctrines sired by men, wouldn't it? Putting a founders name first before the teachings of God in Christ. And that founder having interpreted Jesus' teachings to that end.

Catholicism – (1,200,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Protestantism – (792,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Eastern Orthodoxy – (230,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Oriental Orthodox Church – (82,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Anglicanism – (85,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Nontrinitarianism – (36,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.

Nestorianism – (600,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Irrelevant to the topic.
What does God's word tell us.
Both you and Josiah are desperately changing the topic and running away from God's written word. What does God tell us? Read all of it.
 

Lazy Suesun

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I accept what God tells me.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [/b]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[/b]—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Then you are also stating God predestined people to go to Hell, by the names he knows as one who is Omniscient, and yet did not choose to save before anything was created by him at all.

TULIP, its reformed theology, the word itself is informing of its origins, and perseverance of the saints doctrine, are blasphemy. Namely from, "in the beginning...."
Because the doctrine affirms God predestined Satan's rebellion, thus he would be in the future garden as the tempter. He also predestined the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be eaten of, his forbidding this meaningless. He also predestined sin, is its author, and the fall. And prior to all that which would be necessary for the elect to exist at all, he saw into the future those humans whom he would let to be born saved, while predestinating the rest of the worlds people to be totally depraved and to die as such and then go to Hell for eternity. Unable to avoid it.
Because the elect couldn't really be totally depraved if they were able to be reached by God when he felt it was time to bring them into his fold. Otherwise, "Totality" would be a misnomer.

Jesus never taught total depravity was the human condition. Not once. John 3:16 is a simple enough proof. Whosoever revokes, limited atonement.

One constant amid those who believe the TULIP principle though. They're all absolutely certain they're one of the totally depraved that were predestined to be one of the elect.
How do they act though?
That's telling too.
 

Particular

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Then you are also stating God predestined people to go to Hell, by the names he knows as one who is Omniscient, and yet did not choose to save before anything was created by him at all.

TULIP, its reformed theology, the word itself is informing of its origins, and perseverance of the saints doctrine, are blasphemy. Namely from, "in the beginning...."
Because the doctrine affirms God predestined Satan's rebellion, thus he would be in the future garden as the tempter. He also predestined the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be eaten of, his forbidding this meaningless. He also predestined sin, is its author, and the fall. And prior to all that which would be necessary for the elect to exist at all, he saw into the future those humans whom he would let to be born saved, while predestinating the rest of the worlds people to be totally depraved and to die as such and then go to Hell for eternity. Unable to avoid it.
Because the elect couldn't really be totally depraved if they were able to be reached by God when he felt it was time to bring them into his fold. Otherwise, "Totality" would be a misnomer.

Jesus never taught total depravity was the human condition. Not once. John 3:16 is a simple enough proof. Whosoever revokes, limited atonement.

One constant amid those who believe the TULIP principle though. They're all absolutely certain they're one of the totally depraved that were predestined to be one of the elect.
How do they act though?
That's telling too.
Adam predestined humanity to hell when he rebelled against God's command and brought the curse upon himself and all his offspring.
God, the holy one, is under no obligation to redeem even one rebel. If God chose to be gracious to even one, it would be amazing grace. But God has chosen many from among rebellious humanity.
Paul speaks directly to your complaint in Romans 9. Read it carefully and see how Paul rebukes you.

Romans 9:6-24 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 

Lazy Suesun

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Adam predestined humanity to hell when he rebelled against God's command and brought the curse upon himself and all his offspring.
God, the holy one, is under no obligation to redeem even one rebel. If God chose to be gracious to even one, it would be amazing grace. But God has chosen many from among rebellious humanity.
Paul speaks directly to your complaint in Romans 9. Read it carefully and see how Paul rebukes you.

Romans 9:6-24 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Ah, but you see, your initial observation regarding the one man by which sin entered the world, Romans 5:12, is all part of God's plan, must be, when one believes in TULIP.
The idea of God being under no obligation, is not part of the Apologetic particular to Soteriology when God is first believed to have predestined whom he would save before the world came to exist when in that time, there was no thing yet created to be saved from.
GENESIS 1:31
 

Particular

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Ah, but you see, your initial observation regarding the one man by which sin entered the world, Romans 5:12, is all part of God's plan, must be, when one believes in TULIP.
The idea of God being under no obligation, is not part of the Apologetic particular to Soteriology when God is first believed to have predestined whom he would save before the world came to exist when in that time, there was no thing yet created to be saved from.
GENESIS 1:31
No "ah but". That's your excuse for ignoring all that I shared. Notice, you have completely ignored Romans 9.

I have attempted to do nothing but share scripture. Both you and Josiah have done nothing but attempt to label me so you can justify ignoring scripture that answers the topic of this thread against your assertions.
 

Lazy Suesun

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No "ah but". That's your excuse for ignoring all that I shared. Notice, you have completely ignored Romans 9.

I have attempted to do nothing but share scripture. Both you and Josiah have done nothing but attempt to label me so you can justify ignoring scripture that answers the topic of this thread against your assertions.
I have shared scripture as well. You've made up your mind. I leave you to the God you believe you deserve. Please, do not ever presume you speak of mine.
 

Josiah

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Well that would be the trouble with following doctrines sired by men, wouldn't it? Putting a founders name first before the teachings of God in Christ


Lazy Suesun,


1.
The acceptance that Jesus died for all was universally held by ALL Christians, churches and denominations until a very few radical later-day Calvinists invented the tradition that no, Jesus died for just some and not for everyone. Of course, they had not one Scripture that remotely states that.... and MANY Scriptures that clearly, boldly, verbatim state exactly the opposite (they had to SPIN all these 180 degrees). But the "Jesus Died for Only Some People" dogma is one of one denominational tradition: Radical Calvinism. It's the "L" in their TULIP.


2. The names of MANY denominational traditions came from enemies, intended to be derogatory, but "stuck." "Baptist" (originally Anabaptist - the "ana" was dropped) means "re-baptizers" and mocked how this group re-baptized people who already had been baptized in a valid way, it mocked them for this. "Methodist" is a term given to them by Anglicans because they had a "method" for just about everything. "Lutheran" was a name gven by Catholics (they called themselves "Evangelicals") becausw they were followers of Luther and not Jesus. "Protestant" is another term even by Catholics because these people were "protesting" Christ and the Apostles. "Quaker" (they called themselves "Friends") because they shook when they worshiped. And on and on and on. But again, in time, these terms lost their negativity. We see an example right now. "Mormon" was a negative term these people hated and rejected.... until about 50 years ago when that loosed up, now even some "Later-Day Saints" use the label.



Now back to the issue..... Is Scripture and 100% of Christians before 1600 and maybe 99% since correct and Jesus died for all? Or are a tiny few radical Calvinists since the 16th Century correct and He did not, just for a few? Which is it? THAT'S the sole, exclusive issue of this thread.





.
 

Josiah

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Josiah are running away from God's written word. What does God tell us?


Let's see....

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth


Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for a few."


You've had enough time to find that verse and obviously you can't (and I think everyone knows why) so I think we should stick with what God has said instead. And thus reject this HORRIBLE denomination tradition invented by a few radical Calvinists 500 years ago.







.
 
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Particular

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I have shared scripture as well. You've made up your mind. I leave you to the God you believe you deserve. Please, do not ever presume you speak of mine.

You have shared one verse from here and another verse from there. Jehovah's Witness, Mormons and Muslims do that. Have you looked into the context of all those verses you shared? I have. None of your verses are claiming that Jesus ransomed the entire world when he died on the cross. In fact, they all point to the fact that Jesus ransom was only for all who will believe.
If you argue that Jesus effectively ransomed all the world by his death, then you must also argue that all who are ransomed are also saved. To state anything less is to declare that Jesus did not ransom all.

Please, don't be lazy. Go through every verse and read them in the context of the letter or book in which they reside. You will see that I am not speaking falsely.
 
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