Protests to open up States

[Lamb]

What do you think about the protests happening around the US to open up the states?

 

[tango]

Long overdue.

I get that some areas may need heavier restrictions. They stil need to be done with the lowest possible level of regulation but the simple reality is that most of the country doesn't need to be shut down.

As I mentioned in another thread, when I was handing out free meals to school-age kids one day I met a guy whose business is cutting grass. I'm allowed to go outside and cut my grass but apparently if he cuts my grass he'll presumably come into contact with people. You know, the ones I wouldn't come into contact with if I cut my own grass. So he's not allowed to earn a living. Somehow he's expected to provide for his kids.

You can apparently gather at Walmart or Lowe's or Home Depot but not in a church. You can buy shoes from Walmart but not from the independent shoe store. And if you're somewhere between selling your house and moving into the house that should have been built by now but isn't because the governor arbitrarily shut down the building company (you know, the ones where workers can easily stay six feet from each other) you can hope that you don't end up homeless pending its completion.

A friend of mine is a hairdresser. She has a salon attached to her house. She hasn't been allowed to earn a living for four weeks now. She still has kids to feed, mortgage to pay, bills to pay. She also has this silly idea that she might like to eat as well. For her to stand behind someone and cut their hair is just too big a risk, but she can go to Walmart.

And for good measure the governor who arbitrarily decreed that some aren't allowed to earn a living any more patronises us with comments like "we're all in this together" as he retreats to his mansion, on full pay with his salary covered by the people who he decreed aren't allowed to earn their pay.

We're subjecting 90% of the population to what has been described as the world's biggest psychological experiment, without their consent and without even giving time to plan how to deal with it. The notional benefit is "saving lives" but even the worst figures from the most pessimistic models were talking about 0.6% of the population losing their lives. Current estimates are less then a tenth of that and some are lower still.

This isn't like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it's more like using an attack helicopter to kill a spider.

 

[tango]

This is from Fox News and written by Newt Gingrich so perhaps not the most unbiased source but, you know...

Newt Gingrich: Like Marie Antoinette, Princess Pelosi enjoys luxuries but ignores needs of desperate people | Fox News

The case is being made for a deep repudiation of an elite Democratic Party that now has total contempt for Americans.

www.foxnews.com

 

[hedrick]

That's a hit piece. His evidence of luxury is that she bought ice cream? So did I. Like Nancy I couldn't live without ice cream. But there's not, as far as I know, an ice cream shortage, and I have to get groceries anyway.

A more interesting example is the contrast between NJ briefings and national briefings. In NJ, there are six foot tables in front, with one person sitting at each. The governor comes in with a mask on and takes it off only when he sits down, to avoid being muffled when he speaks. The President has advisors standing right next to him, none of them masked (unless they've started in the last couple of days).

 

[tango]

That's a hit piece. His evidence of luxury is that she bought ice cream? So did I. Like Nancy I couldn't live without ice cream. But there's not, as far as I know, an ice cream shortage, and I have to get groceries anyway.

A more interesting example is the contrast between NJ briefings and national briefings. In NJ, there are six foot tables in front, with one person sitting at each. The governor comes in with a mask on and takes it off only when he sits down, to avoid being muffled when he speaks. The President has advisors standing right next to him, none of them masked (unless they've started in the last couple of days).

There's a big difference between "buying ice cream" and showing the nation your $20,000+ freezer loaded with top-end ice cream while the masses are told they aren't allowed to earn a living.

I have ice cream too. I just don't have the most expensive ice cream I can find and it sits in a 10-year-old freezer that cost $500 rather than a freezer that cost many times that. Even if you take away the "let them eat cake" message it could be said to send it's hard to argue that it says much other than "I'm alright Jack, don't fancy your chances much".

The NJ briefings you describe sound more like posturing than anything else. Being Seen To Be Doing Something that doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of difference is easy, especially in a managed setting where it's more about being seen than in doing much. If people are sat at six-foot tables and aren't speaking, do they need to be there at all? And if someone is walking in to a carefully managed area it can't be that hard to make sure they stay six feet away from people as they do it, in which case the mask achieves even less.

Unless NJ has more access to masks than other areas it also carries a message of "hey, we're wearing masks. You guys can't find them anywhere but we're telling you to wear them anyway". I wear a buff pulled over my mouth when it's required. It makes virtually no difference - my lungs are more than strong enough to blow microscopic particles through the buff and several feet in whatever direction I'm facing - but apparently it makes people feel better.

 

[hedrick]

The NJ briefings you describe sound more like posturing than anything else. Being Seen To Be Doing Something that doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of difference is easy, especially in a managed setting where it's more about being seen than in doing much. If people are sat at six-foot tables and aren't speaking, do they need to be there at all?

The people at the tables are all speaking. Just not next to each other. I think the governor believes that leaders should follow the rules they ask others to follow. I agree. It's not just for news conferences. While I'm not in a position to observe personally, they've said they follow similar rules in internal meetings.

In an epidemic like this, at the very least the President and Vice President at least should stay away from each other. Unless they want to see Pelosi as acting president. ...

 

[NewCreation435]

I don't think things should be opened up until our medical facilities are at a place where they can care for people without being in crisis mode and there is more available testing and treatment options available. To say there is enough testing available is just plain silly

 

[tango]

I don't think things should be opened up until our medical facilities are at a place where they can care for people without being in crisis mode and there is more available testing and treatment options available. To say there is enough testing available is just plain silly

It still comes back to the question of how much it takes for medical facilities to be able to cope with a surge. Maintaining a high level of medical readiness costs money, money that the people will be clamoring to be redirected not long after this passes. And to keep the economy shut down until facilities can be built will inflict such damage that the facilities will probably never be built because they'll run out of money before they are finished.

 

[psalms 91]

A hit piece for sure! I could say the same about Mitch as he tried to drag his feet on many things but in fairness it is both sides and they all need thrown out of office but I am sure the Republicans would want to keep their people and vice versa which is why it will never happen

 

[JRT]

What do you think about the protests happening around the US to open up the states?

They are very premature and incredibly foolish.

https://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/photos/a.737221629640626/3925610200801737

 

[psalms 91]

I agree with Tango, time to open up while we still have something to open up ad jobs for people to go back to. The stimulous money will do no good if businesses shut their doors for good

 

[tango]

Another key thing is that if the economy is opened up people who are more fearful of the virus, whether through personal medical circumstance or simply being more fearful than others, are still free to stay home if they want to. Nobody is forcing them to go out and mix with people. It's just giving everybody else the choice to decide for themselves.

If you don't want to go to the crowded Walmart, don't go to the crowded Walmart. But if you want to go and have a haircut why shouldn't you?

 

[tango]

The people at the tables are all speaking. Just not next to each other. I think the governor believes that leaders should follow the rules they ask others to follow. I agree. It's not just for news conferences. While I'm not in a position to observe personally, they've said they follow similar rules in internal meetings.

In an epidemic like this, at the very least the President and Vice President at least should stay away from each other. Unless they want to see Pelosi as acting president. ...

Is this the same NJ governor who described thinking about the Bill of Rights as being above his pay grade? I'm not an expert in the constitution but don't governors swear to uphold it when they are sworn into office? But, you know, it's inconvenient so it can be ignored.

N.J. Gov. Says He ‘Wasn’t Thinking of the Bill of Rights’ When He Imposed Strict Social Distancing Guidelines

New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy said Wednesday that he was not thinking of the Bill of Rights when he implemented strict social distancing measures across the state, saying the consideration is "above my pay grade."During an interview with Fox News' Tucker Carlson, Murphy defended his decision...

news.yahoo.com

 

[hedrick]

I've changed this answer a couple of times, as I read more specifics. Tucker asked Murphy later whether he had talked to a lawyer about it. He had. A reasonable understanding of his original answer is that he wasn't qualified to give a legal analysis. But he had consulted lawyers (which he should have said).

 

[hedrick]

Here's a legal analysis of what he *should" have said: https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analy...y-could-have-avoided-his-fox-news-trainwreck/.

To add weirdness to the situation: Murphy's order actually doesn't ban church services. The stay at home order lists religious activities as an exception for which you may leave home, and it bans social gatherings only. However police have shut down at least one religious service.

It also doesn't shut down industry and commerce except things such as retail, barbershops and gyms, that would cause people to congregate. Thus it differs from New York, which shuts down all non-essential business. In NJ you can run a non-essential business that's not in that specific list, and people can leave home to work even in a non-essential business if they can't reasonably work at home.

 

[tango]

You might have hoped a state governor would know better than to say things that even suggested he didn't think about the Bill of Rights, no?

Saying "I didn't think about it" is a very different proposition to "I spoke to a lawyer because I'm not qualified to do a detailed legal analysis".

 

[NerdGirl123]

Long overdue.

I get that some areas may need heavier restrictions. They stil need to be done with the lowest possible level of regulation but the simple reality is that most of the country doesn't need to be shut down.

As I mentioned in another thread, when I was handing out free meals to school-age kids one day I met a guy whose business is cutting grass. I'm allowed to go outside and cut my grass but apparently if he cuts my grass he'll presumably come into contact with people. You know, the ones I wouldn't come into contact with if I cut my own grass. So he's not allowed to earn a living. Somehow he's expected to provide for his kids.

You can apparently gather at Walmart or Lowe's or Home Depot but not in a church. You can buy shoes from Walmart but not from the independent shoe store. And if you're somewhere between selling your house and moving into the house that should have been built by now but isn't because the governor arbitrarily shut down the building company (you know, the ones where workers can easily stay six feet from each other) you can hope that you don't end up homeless pending its completion.

A friend of mine is a hairdresser. She has a salon attached to her house. She hasn't been allowed to earn a living for four weeks now. She still has kids to feed, mortgage to pay, bills to pay. She also has this silly idea that she might like to eat as well. For her to stand behind someone and cut their hair is just too big a risk, but she can go to Walmart.

And for good measure the governor who arbitrarily decreed that some aren't allowed to earn a living any more patronises us with comments like "we're all in this together" as he retreats to his mansion, on full pay with his salary covered by the people who he decreed aren't allowed to earn their pay.

We're subjecting 90% of the population to what has been described as the world's biggest psychological experiment, without their consent and without even giving time to plan how to deal with it. The notional benefit is "saving lives" but even the worst figures from the most pessimistic models were talking about 0.6% of the population losing their lives. Current estimates are less then a tenth of that and some are lower still.

This isn't like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it's more like using an attack helicopter to kill a spider.

I didn't expect to agree with you, but I do! Very well put.

 

[tango]

I agree with Tango, time to open up while we still have something to open up ad jobs for people to go back to. The stimulous money will do no good if businesses shut their doors for good

Don't panic, the stimulus checks can still be spent at Walmart and Amazon. I'm sure they need the money far more than the small businesses owners wondering when the governor will be gracious enough to allow them to earn a living.