Non trinitarian doctrine still relegated to speculative theology?

[popsthebuilder]

Been gone a while. Was looking for a forum where i wouldn't be judged as heretical due to non trinitarian belief. My search brought me back here. I remember this place was more focused on edification than dispute. After a cursory glance it seems if not trinitarian then not christian still seems to be the case. Was just curious. Maybe someone knows of a forum that does not revolve around trinitarianism.

peace

 

[Andrew]

Been gone a while. Was looking for a forum where i wouldn't be judged as heretical due to non trinitarian belief. My search brought me back here. I remember this place was more focused on edification than dispute. After a cursory glance it seems if not trinitarian then not christian still seems to be the case. Was just curious. Maybe someone knows of a forum that does not revolve around trinitarianism.

peace

When debating a non trinitarian they never fail to introduce an alternative to the Trinity, which in the end leads to just another FORM of the trinity doctrine.

Ie, Oneness Pentecostals believe Jesus and the Father are God as they worship in The Holy Spirit (main focus) as His Spirit and attempt poorly to explain away and lock God in a box concerning the Godhead.
It's a mystery my friend, the only reason the church developed the doctrinal creed of the trinity was to put an end to the needles debates over something mankind can not grasp.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It is in the creeds for more than to just stop argument. People have been killed over it. To this day most will claim a nontrin is a non christian and non believer. When did you become a mod? There are very distinct claims made by the trinity doctrine that are contradictory to scripture. I mean; i cant even post in christian theology because of a creed. How do you reason together of you cant even talk together. Oh wait; i almost forgot; if not trinitarian then not a believer and as such; real Christians don't even have to attempt to use reason when discussing it. And the mystery in scripture isnt the trinity doctrine which is unsound, but that the Spirit of GOD lives in ths Holy Temple of GOD. I can pick apart thw trinity without any real thought or effort. That shouldnt be the case if sound doctrine. Glad you are well.
peace

 

[JRT]

For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

I also completely reject the notion that a non Trinitarian is automatically a non Christian.

 

[Andrew]

It is in the creeds for more than to just stop argument. People have been killed over it. To this day most will claim a nontrin is a non christian and non believer. When did you become a mod? There are very distinct claims made by the trinity doctrine that are contradictory to scripture. I mean; i cant even post in christian theology because of a creed. How do you reason together of you cant even talk together. Oh wait; i almost forgot; if not trinitarian then not a believer and as such; real Christians don't even have to attempt to use reason when discussing it. And the mystery in scripture isnt the trinity doctrine which is unsound, but that the Spirit of GOD lives in ths Holy Temple of GOD. I can pick apart thw trinity without any real thought or effort. That shouldnt be the case if sound doctrine. Glad you are well.
peace

I've been a mod for a while now, going on three years I believe, glad you are well too
Before I never paid much attention to the trinity, being raised Catholic I don't recall them even explaining it to me. My friend asked me to join him in going to a Pentecostal oneness church, an ex Catholic priest spoke one morning implying that Trinitarians worship three gods and will be seated in Hell where they will ask their priests "why did you lie to us?"... it really hurt me as my family and my deceased loved ones were supposedly in hell... but sure enough I became a regular, even an usher at the church, but when I attended a few of their at home bible studies I asked them about it.. they told me that God can be a Father and a Son just like a person can also be a father and a son.. Jesus sits on the right hand of The Father, so more questions were brought up and eventually an alternative trinity explanation was given me.. They say Jesus is God, the Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God, but but unlike Catholics we only worship the one true God... ??? Needles to say, Jesus was baptised, The Holy Spirit rested on Him and God from Heaven spoke, all at once and all are God.
"Let US make man in OUR image"

 

[JRT]

As we examine the evolution of the Hebrew/Jewish perception of God in the Old Testament, what becomes obvious was that in the earliest layers El was merely just another tribal god. It was however the ONLY god that was permitted to the Hebrew people. This is known as henotheism. As time went by this exclusive tribal deity evolved into the ONLY deity. This of course is monotheism. Viewed in this manner Elohim as plural refers to the pantheon of middle-eastern gods of whom El was regarded as the chief god.

"Let US make man in OUR image" This the pantheon not the trinity speaking.

 

[JRT]

As we examine the evolution of the Hebrew/Jewish perception of God in the Old Testament, what becomes obvious was that in the earliest layers El was merely just another tribal god. It was however the ONLY god that was permitted to the Hebrew people. This is known as henotheism. As time went by this exclusive tribal deity evolved into the ONLY deity. This of course is monotheism. Viewed in this manner Elohim as plural refers to the pantheon of middle-eastern gods of whom El was regarded as the chief god.

"Let US make man in OUR image" This the pantheon not the trinity speaking.

 

[Stravinsk]

John 5: 16-45 contains a number of statements that clearly indicate Messiah is a servant of God, not God himself.
John 14:28 also

Ie: He needs to be "shown", he needs to "follow", "can do nothing by Myself", self testimony not valid (vs 31), only the Father's, does not receive glory from men (vs 41). Father is greater.

It is clear to me (not a "mystery") that these statements are not false humility, but a clear indication of where Yeshua puts himself in comparison to God. Otherwise, he would be lying, and neither God nor servant of God lies.

That puts statements like "before Abraham was born, I am" in the context of a spokesman for God, foreknew, or the word (of the old testament) made flesh - not eternal pre-existence.

Of course, that doesn't take into account Saul/Paul's words, if you are inclined to believe his Damascus conversion story and the teachings that followed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I've been a mod for a while now, going on three years I believe, glad you are well too
Before I never paid much attention to the trinity, being raised Catholic I don't recall them even explaining it to me. My friend asked me to join him in going to a Pentecostal oneness church, an ex Catholic priest spoke one morning implying that Trinitarians worship three gods and will be seated in Hell where they will ask their priests "why did you lie to us?"... it really hurt me as my family and my deceased loved ones were supposedly in hell... but sure enough I became a regular, even an usher at the church, but when I attended a few of their at home bible studies I asked them about it.. they told me that God can be a Father and a Son just like a person can also be a father and a son.. Jesus sits on the right hand of The Father, so more questions were brought up and eventually an alternative trinity explanation was given me.. They say Jesus is God, the Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God, but but unlike Catholics we only worship the one true God... ??? Needles to say, Jesus was baptised, The Holy Spirit rested on Him and God from Heaven spoke, all at once and all are God.
"Let US make man in OUR image"

Let it ever be far from us to condemn the passed or ignorant. As if our just merciful GOD would hold the mislead to the standard of the ones who mislead.

We shouldn't consider sound doctrine that which is supported bt a singular word, such as "our". If we do then how much more compelling are whole verses that express that GOD is Spirit and to be worshipped in spirit? That GOD is One, that none is like or "co"- equal with GOD? That GOD is not man? I don't want to offend or debate. I recall you being an astute sincere young man, and surely our beloved who have long passed will not be judged according to what they did not know. If you care to speak more on the topic then i would be happy to.

peace my friend.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
It may be that the Divine Being is a quad rather than a trio. There's God as himself,
God as His spirit, God as His voice, and God as His son.

That's roughly equivalent to the appearance of the likeness of the glory of God that
Ezekiel wrote about.

He saw four strange beings that had four faces each: the face of a man, the face of
an eagle, the face of an ox, and the face of a lion. I leave it to the prophecy
mongers to interpret that vision; as for me: I'm reluctant to even hazard a guess.
_

 

[atpollard]

As we examine the evolution of the Hebrew/Jewish perception of God in the Old Testament, what becomes obvious was that in the earliest layers El was merely just another tribal god. It was however the ONLY god that was permitted to the Hebrew people. This is known as henotheism. As time went by this exclusive tribal deity evolved into the ONLY deity. This of course is monotheism. Viewed in this manner Elohim as plural refers to the pantheon of middle-eastern gods of whom El was regarded as the chief god.

"Let US make man in OUR image" This the pantheon not the trinity speaking.

Genesis 1 refutes that worldview. It is a polemic directly aimed at contradicting the other middle-eastern creation stories and gods.